SAME Air Cooled Engines

powerfarmer

Member
Location
Cork Ireland
Hi All,
There's quite a few old SAME tractors still working around here mostly dating from the early 1980's when there was a dealer operating locally.
Looking at one today (a Centurion) I m curious about the air cooled engines.
Were they SAMEs own designs or Deutz based ? Asked a mechanic about them he said they use an unusual fuel injection system.
I m not buying one or anything just curious about the unusual.
 

8100

Member
Location
South Cheshire
The early SAME Tiger /Panther/Centurion etc are quiet a decent tractor but can have gearbox trouble mainly on the HI /lo spliter.The Buffalo seemed the worse of the bunch .I recall the fuel side was a camshaft driven system with each injector having its own little pump but dont quote me on that :)Never had any bother with fuel system where i worked .You had to blow the cylinder heads off with air line regular but not much mither otherwise :)
 
The injection system is not that unusual. The separate cam driven pumps are familiar to anybody who has owned or worked on any of the millions of lister / petter diesels, or any number of similar such air cooled engines. I worked an a comparatively modern Yanmar water-cooled 4cyl engine a couple of weeks ago that had injested water instead of diesel. It had the same separate injection pump system design.
 

Cowabunga

Member
Location
Ceredigion,Wales
The injection system is not that unusual. The separate cam driven pumps are familiar to anybody who has owned or worked on any of the millions of lister / petter diesels, or any number of similar such air cooled engines. I worked an a comparatively modern Yanmar water-cooled 4cyl engine a couple of weeks ago that had injested water instead of diesel. It had the same separate injection pump system design.
The little 'Perkins'/ISM engines used in JCB mini diggers etc also use a similar fuel injector pump system.
 

Cowabunga

Member
Location
Ceredigion,Wales
Hi All,
There's quite a few old SAME tractors still working around here mostly dating from the early 1980's when there was a dealer operating locally.
Looking at one today (a Centurion) I m curious about the air cooled engines.
Were they SAMEs own designs or Deutz based ? Asked a mechanic about them he said they use an unusual fuel injection system.
I m not buying one or anything just curious about the unusual.
These are Same's own design and are the 'Pantherised' versions of an earlier design. The Pantherised engines have the immersed camshaft actuated piston pumps rather than the Simms-type timing case driven external in-line pump previously used. They also have under-piston oil spray cooling to supplement the air cooling of the upper combustion chamber and cylinder heads. Anything else?……….. Oh yes, hyper eutectic alloy pistons. Not sure whether there was anything unique about the pistons at the time but it was mentioned in their marketing bullshite.
Very economical engines but lacking somewhat in torque backup compared with more modern designs today.
Pantherised engines were made in three, four, five and six cylinder versions with two bore sizes available. I know one was 98mm and I think the other was either 102 or 105mm, can't quite remember which. The five cylinder was interesting because at that time only Same and Fiat fitted them to tractors as far as I know. Both around 90hp. An example of the Same is the Jaguar95.

I had a Tiger Six 105 and a later Laser 130. The Tiger was an especially impressive performer in its day. The Laser was hampered by a heavy clutch pedal and a transmission that seemed to suck power in the two higher gears for some reason. Although still only 30kph, the Laser had the same front axle as fitted to my Titan 160 complete with large brakes in each front hub.

These Pantherised engines liked hard work from new or their extremely high quality cylinders and piston rings would glaze. Once run-in properly on that hard work they are extremely reliable and long lived engines as long as the fins are kept reasonably clean to avoid overheating. I believe I'm correct in saying that each engine manufactured was partly run-in at Treviglio in their several test chambers before fitting to a chassis. That was, I think, quite innovative in the late 1970's and early 1980's.

The one exception is that they are difficult to time properly once upset.

There was one locally, a Trident 130, that kept blowing fuel injectors out for some reason. I don't think Riverlea, the dealer, ever did cure it.

And no, I didn't get a single morsel of the above from Google, so :finger: to those that believe I do.
 
Last edited:

powerfarmer

Member
Location
Cork Ireland
Thanks Mr Duck for that informative reply.
Interesting that the engines are SAMEs own designs.
I recall the owner of the Centurion saying that it was easy on fuel compared with the MF 690 he ran as well.
It is badged as "Centurion 75 Export", I think it is from around 1983 I remember my uncle driving it operating a then brand new Claas Rollant 46 in 1990.
Thanks again.

I
 

Cowabunga

Member
Location
Ceredigion,Wales
Thanks Mr Duck for that informative reply.
Interesting that the engines are SAMEs own designs.
I recall the owner of the Centurion saying that it was easy on fuel compared with the MF 690 he ran as well.
It is badged as "Centurion 75 Export", I think it is from around 1983 I remember my uncle driving it operating a then brand new Claas Rollant 46 in 1990.
Thanks again.

I
I think that the Centurion was the largest of the range with a hump in the cab floor and centre tunnel mounter gear levers. The levers are unusual in that they seem to have two right angle bends with a portion going horizontally near the floor, presumably so that driver access was easier and that they were in the correct position for use. Only saw Centurions a handful of times so memory may be playing tricks with me on this.
 
These are Same's own design and are the 'Pantherised' versions of an earlier design. The Pantherised engines have the immersed camshaft actuated piston pumps rather than the Simms-type timing case driven external in-line pump previously used. They also have under-piston oil spray cooling to supplement the air cooling of the upper combustion chamber and cylinder heads. Anything else?……….. Oh yes, hyper eutectic alloy pistons. Not sure whether there was anything unique about the pistons at the time but it was mentioned in their marketing bullshite.
Very economical engines but lacking somewhat in torque backup compared with more modern designs today.
Pantherised engines were made in three, four, five and six cylinder versions with two bore sizes available. I know one was 98mm and I think the other was either 102 or 105mm, can't quite remember which. The five cylinder was interesting because at that time only Same and Fiat fitted them to tractors as far as I know. Both around 90hp. An example of the Same is the Jaguar95.

I had a Tiger Six 105 and a later Laser 130. The Tiger was an especially impressive performer in its day. The Laser was hampered by a heavy clutch pedal and a transmission that seemed to suck power in the two higher gears for some reason. Although still only 30kph, the Laser had the same front axle as fitted to my Titan 160 complete with large brakes in each front hub.

These Pantherised engines liked hard work from new or their extremely high quality cylinders and piston rings would glaze. Once run-in properly on that hard work they are extremely reliable and long lived engines as long as the fins are kept reasonably clean to avoid overheating. I believe I'm correct in saying that each engine manufactured was partly run-in at Treviglio in their several test chambers before fitting to a chassis. That was, I think, quite innovative in the late 1970's and early 1980's.

The one exception is that they are difficult to time properly once upset.

There was one locally, a Trident 130, that kept blowing fuel injectors out for some reason. I don't think Riverlea, the dealer, ever did cure it.

And no, I didn't get a single morsel of the above from Google, so :finger: to those that believe I do.
Just a question on the timing of the single element fuel pumps, do you know what the procedure was meant to be as I would have thought it would be relatively straightforward? Just take a bit of time (y)
 

Cowabunga

Member
Location
Ceredigion,Wales
Just a question on the timing of the single element fuel pumps, do you know what the procedure was meant to be as I would have thought it would be relatively straightforward? Just take a bit of time (y)
Not offhand. I've got an engine workshop manual somewhere upstairs that explains it, but I haven't opened it in more than 20 years. Just going on what I vaguely remember.
 
I don't want to hex myself but the engines are superbly economical and offer good reliability.
I will be putting the 8000th hour on mine today, other than all the oil leaks I really do rate them (y) for what I want in a tractor, anyway.
Climb up a wall, and not mark the paper; no cooling issues if you keep the fins clean, the only real fault of the earlier ones IMO were the dry clutch/dry brakes combo.
May as well have put a zip in the middle
:banghead::facepalm:
Good "smoker's tractor" - if you dont mind the odd stop on the hour for a cool down and a ciggy during heavy operation :)

We had a Corsaro 70 back in the 80s/90s so I'm possibly sentimental rather than objective :rolleyes:
 

Mursal

Member
Cummins use/used similar but, a push rod and rocker opened the injector. Shims under the cam follower gave minute control on point of injection/phasing.
So I'm thinking Same will be similar ........
 
Last edited:
Cummins use/used similar but, a push rod and rocker opened the injector. Shims under the cam follower gave minute control on point of injection/phasing.
So I'm thinking Same will be similar ........
I was thinking of unit injector pumps situated on the side of the block so need phasing/timing individually but I don't know(y)
 

Mur Huwcun

Member
Location
North West Wales
The older Panther, Tiger, Centurion etc will have the older type engine with the injector pump at the front in a bank type configuration similar to Perkins KE(?) type engines. They have no timing marks whatsoever and need to be setup using a DTI on cam, pushrod or rocker really.

They then moved on to individual pumps for each cylinder around 1985 ish (I think). They were C plate registrations though. The pumps on them are cam driven and are shimmed between pump and block to set stroke/clearance. They need to be heat probed to be setup correctly. Pumps are rack controlled of a seperate governor.
 
The older Panther, Tiger, Centurion etc will have the older type engine with the injector pump at the front in a bank type configuration similar to Perkins KE(?) type engines. They have no timing marks whatsoever and need to be setup using a DTI on cam, pushrod or rocker really.

They then moved on to individual pumps for each cylinder around 1985 ish (I think). They were C plate registrations though. The pumps on them are cam driven and are shimmed between pump and block to set stroke/clearance. They need to be heat probed to be setup correctly. Pumps are rack controlled of a seperate governor.
could you explain the timing in the first paragraph. Just trying to get it straight
 

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