SB and SO into very old pasture

[pine_guy]

So as some of you know, I have been playing about with DD. Put some WB in late October last year with a SimTech demo and I've put some spring barley in 2 weeks ago with a friend Horsch C04 which he has just converted to 5" dutch openers with the open foot.

Now I have 20 acre of very old pasture, at least 30 years, that I would like to bring into my rotation. My plan is to DD spring barley and Oats (separately, as its in three fields) into it. Till yesterday it has been grazed cattle which have now been moved on to summer grassing further away. So time to crack on. Had hoped to maybe have bought a second hand SimTech drill by now, but that hasn't panned out and the nearest is 50 miles away. So my options are a contractor with a moore (@hally would you be interested?) or my friends Horsch. We've had a trial with the Horsch this week in a small field. Its made a reasonable job, but maybe slightly more pulling of the turf in places than I'd like as the seed is not covered there. This can be improved by going deeper, but this is where my worry is. With the 5" dutch boots with the open back, the spread of seed is very good, but will that seed be able to push up though the turf/sod. As with the winter sown SimTech, the seeds came up through the slot.

Hope that makes sense. Oh and the plan is to spray off just before or maybe just after sowing. Probably the latter as I might have a play this weekend and I don't have any glypho in stock.

 

[hally]

So as some of you know, I have been playing about with DD. Put some WB in late October last year with a SimTech demo and I've put some spring barley in 2 weeks ago with a friend Horsch C04 which he has just converted to 5" dutch openers with the open foot.

Now I have 20 acre of very old pasture, at least 30 years, that I would like to bring into my rotation. My plan is to DD spring barley and Oats (separately, as its in three fields) into it. Till yesterday it has been grazed cattle which have now been moved on to summer grassing further away. So time to crack on. Had hoped to maybe have bought a second hand SimTech drill by now, but that hasn't panned out and the nearest is 50 miles away. So my options are a contractor with a moore (@hally would you be interested?) or my friends Horsch. We've had a trial with the Horsch this week in a small field. Its made a reasonable job, but maybe slightly more pulling of the turf in places than I'd like as the seed is not covered there. This can be improved by going deeper, but this is where my worry is. With the 5" dutch boots with the open back, the spread of seed is very good, but will that seed be able to push up though the turf/sod. As with the winter sown SimTech, the seeds came up through the slot.

Hope that makes sense. Oh and the plan is to spray off just before or maybe just after sowing. Probably the latter as I might have a play this weekend and I don't have any glypho in stock.

No problem often in your neck of the woods

 

[ollie989898]

So as some of you know, I have been playing about with DD. Put some WB in late October last year with a SimTech demo and I've put some spring barley in 2 weeks ago with a friend Horsch C04 which he has just converted to 5" dutch openers with the open foot.

Now I have 20 acre of very old pasture, at least 30 years, that I would like to bring into my rotation. My plan is to DD spring barley and Oats (separately, as its in three fields) into it. Till yesterday it has been grazed cattle which have now been moved on to summer grassing further away. So time to crack on. Had hoped to maybe have bought a second hand SimTech drill by now, but that hasn't panned out and the nearest is 50 miles away. So my options are a contractor with a moore (@hally would you be interested?) or my friends Horsch. We've had a trial with the Horsch this week in a small field. Its made a reasonable job, but maybe slightly more pulling of the turf in places than I'd like as the seed is not covered there. This can be improved by going deeper, but this is where my worry is. With the 5" dutch boots with the open back, the spread of seed is very good, but will that seed be able to push up though the turf/sod. As with the winter sown SimTech, the seeds came up through the slot.

Hope that makes sense. Oh and the plan is to spray off just before or maybe just after sowing. Probably the latter as I might have a play this weekend and I don't have any glypho in stock.

Forget spring cereals now- it's May. Direct drill kale into it.

 

[pine_guy]

Forget spring cereals now- it's May. Direct drill kale into it.

Rubbish, this is cumbria not Somerset. 2012 I ploughed out 20 acre of grass into spring barley after using it for lambing. It was my best yielding ground by far! Doing about 3ton. And I’d had over a month grazing off it first.

Kale is not something I can really use. I don’t really want to graze that with cattle as I’m trying to preserve the soil structure not poach it all away. The spring crop may get whole cropped and some stubble turnips in for the sheep.

 

[spin cycle]

will not grass pests be a problem

 

[pine_guy]

@spin cycle Leather jackets and wire worm are on my mind yes. But I’d have that problem if I ploughed it.

 

[spin cycle]

@spin cycle Leather jackets and wire worm are on my mind yes. But I’d have that problem if I ploughed it.

i'm not doubting it.....but..in general i'm a bit confused....for years chlorpyrifos was used but i keep reading threads about ppl drilling cereals into pp

 

[Bury the Trash]

Leather jackets Not such a prob in later ploughed and worked ground if it's done over a week of 2 before drilling .. the crooks and jackdaws are atm feeding for breeding

 

[ollie989898]

The barley will either get smashed by leatherjackets or it won't. The stuff grows like a genetically modified weed and will often try to outrun the weeds (and your sprayer). I've put crops into the nastiest most horrible permanent pasture and never seen an issue in spring as the soil is warm and weather is kinder.

It is autumn when you end up going late and the soils are cool, rain, frosts etc are when soil pests can really smash a crop up.

The main concern with spring barley is birds eating it.

 

[pine_guy]

So, to the question that is bothering me, with the 5inch opener, will the barley push through the old turf? Or try to grow up the slot? I think we need to get in 2” to make a good job and worried the sprouts won’t make it up.

 

[hendrebc]

Not sure about 5 inches deep but I put spring barley direct drilled into old permanent pasture in may last year and it did really well.
I didn't know about any grass pests or any other reason everyone told me it wouldn't work till after I'd done it but it was fine. Put in with a simtech at about 3-4 inches deep I think. I don't know anything about horsch drills or any other direct drills so can't really help there. If the slots are quite open I'd think it will be fine but don't rely on what I say because I'm no agronomist

 

[pine_guy]

Not sure about 5 inches deep but I put spring barley direct drilled into old permanent pasture in may last year and it did really well.
I didn't know about any grass pests or any other reason everyone told me it wouldn't work till after I'd done it but it was fine. Put in with a simtech at about 3-4 inches deep I think. I don't know anything about horsch drills or any other direct drills so can't really help there. If the slots are quite open I'd think it will be fine but don't rely on what I say because I'm no agronomist

So I'm just learning too. So here is what I have learned so far about different Direct drills for us that only have a few acres. For the majority of tine drills, the name doesn't matter, its just a frame with a hopper and a fan. most of the discussion is about what is on the end of the tine. So the 5" dutch openers refers to the width of the opener (frog foot on the bottom) not the drilling depth, which is controlled by the drill settings. So my mates drill has dutch openers are 5 inches wide with an open back, so imagine the simtech drill foot being 5" wide. the seed can be spread anywhere in that 5" width. where we drilled into stubble, it worked up like a till and the barley came straight up and there is a good spread/distribution of the plants. I am concerned that maybe with the thick turf, the plants all have to come up through the slot, and those seeds 2" away from the slot won't make it as have to grow sideways too much to get to the slot. The slots are closed by a tyre packer on the back of the drill.

Maybe I am just over thinking things.

 

[hendrebc]

So I'm just learning too. So here is what I have learned so far about different Direct drills for us that only have a few acres. For the majority of tine drills, the name doesn't matter, its just a frame with a hopper and a fan. most of the discussion is about what is on the end of the tine. So the 5" dutch openers refers to the width of the opener (frog foot on the bottom) not the drilling depth, which is controlled by the drill settings. So my mates drill has dutch openers are 5 inches wide with an open back, so imagine the simtech drill foot being 5" wide. the seed can be spread anywhere in that 5" width. where we drilled into stubble, it worked up like a till and the barley came straight up and there is a good spread/distribution of the plants. I am concerned that maybe with the thick turf, the plants all have to come up through the slot, and those seeds 2" away from the slot won't make it as have to grow sideways too much to get to the slot. The slots are closed by a tyre packer on the back of the drill.

Maybe I am just over thinking things.

Every day is a school day
I'm sure there is an old thread on here about putting cereals into old grass but I can't remember what it was called. @Clive is very knowledgeable so is @Brisel actually he knows a lot about a lot they might know. There are probably others on here but I don't know the arable farmers names in here all that well.

 

[pine_guy]

Every day is a school day
I'm sure there is an old thread on here about putting cereals into old grass but I can't remember what it was called. @Clive is very knowledgeable so is @Brisel actually he knows a lot about a lot they might know. There are probably others on here but I don't know the arable farmers names in here all that well.

Cheers, yes I am hoping they come along and give advice. Also maybe some of the simons, but I'm not sure which are which to tag them. I've read quite a lot of advice in here, I'd probably do it differently based on what I have read, but it is what i have available to me. I am quite happy that I could establish it with a moore using a contractor. But I am thinking of buying an old tine drill and converting it (possibly to simtech) as a cheap entry into DD as I don't have enough acres to justify £12k+. So understanding how to establish out of grass with a tine is important to me as I'm a mixed farm and grass is big in the rotation.

 

[Brisel]

Every day is a school day
I'm sure there is an old thread on here about putting cereals into old grass but I can't remember what it was called. @Clive is very knowledgeable so is @Brisel actually he knows a lot about a lot they might know. There are probably others on here but I don't know the arable farmers names in here all that well.

Thanks for the tag. I’d be nervous about putting cereals into turf in May but as @ollie989898 says, it should grow like hell if leatherjackets don’t thin it and you get regular Cumbrian rainfall on it. I’d be more worried about pest attack in a winter crop & I would expect wireworm damage in winter wheat following the spring oats.

 

[pine_guy]

Thanks for the tag. I’d be nervous about putting cereals into turf in May but as @ollie989898 says, it should grow like hell if leatherjackets don’t thin it and you get regular Cumbrian rainfall on it. I’d be more worried about pest attack in a winter crop & I would expect wireworm damage in winter wheat following the spring oats.

Thanks @Brisel. Any thoughts on the 5” Dutch openers?

What’s the reason for wire worm after the oats?

 

[Brisel]

Wire worm numbers will have built up over the years. Initially they will eat the old pasture roots but will be looking for a new meal when they have gone. Wire worm has a 4 year life cycle so it will be around for a while. I normally recommend a non cereal crop after permanent pasture to help break the cycle. Your window of growth is quite small now so the oats or barley should outgrow the damage quickly.

 

[ollie989898]

I've had maize literally obliterated by wireworm the third spring after ploughing up old pasture. Whole field went yellow-red and that was dressed with poncho!!

 

[pine_guy]

Wire worm numbers will have built up over the years. Initially they will eat the old pasture roots but will be looking for a new meal when they have gone. Wire worm has a 4 year life cycle so it will be around for a while. I normally recommend a non cereal crop after permanent pasture to help break the cycle. Your window of growth is quite small now so the oats or barley should outgrow the damage quickly.

Leather jackets I have experience of, but not. Wire worm. So a bit off reading needed. Obviously, the sprays gone so not much else but a break to kill/starve them? Would it be better to over winter fallow? And then another spring crop? Will they bother stubble turnips or another cover crop that sheep can eat help with them.

 

[neilo]

Leather jackets I have experience of, but not. Wire worm. So a bit off reading needed. Obviously, the sprays gone so not much else but a break to kill/starve them? Would it be better to over winter fallow? And then another spring crop? Will they bother stubble turnips or another cover crop that sheep can eat help with them.

Wireworm don’t seem to like brassicas ime. I had terrible trouble in one field of SB for 2 years, but the swedes that followed were ineffective. Wireworm numbers had thinned out enough by the following SB crop.
I’ve just DD’ed SB into a field that’s had 2 years of swedes, after (very) long term grass, the swedes going in specifically to address the pest problem. I cleared a load of miles out first and was amazed to find a lot of leatherjackets and a few wireworm still, when I was setting in traps. Near perfect drilling conditions so hoping the SB will manage to outgrow the problems at this time of year.