Scene of 'utter devastation' - neglect and death of 84 cattle

[Dry Rot]

Someone must have known .
That's the breakdown right there

Not necessarily.

Edited to say, probably ought to have known.

I am an old bachelor, living and working alone, and quite happy like that. (I suspect autism!). Often I won't speak to anyone for a couple of weeks. I am quite happy about that and I have always managed to feed livestock whatever. But I can see why some wouldn't be able o manage. I deleted several posts in reply to th, " Why not just buy feed?" post as they were probably too rude!

Wasn't it Marie Antoinette who asked why the people were rioting? When told it was because they had no bread, she suggested they should eat cake. That is how divorced some people are to the facts of life, even today.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Not necessarily.

I cant see that sorry .he must have post
It's easy to turn a blind eye
What would you do if your weren't happy with the state of a farm

 

[Dry Rot]

I cant see that sorry .he must have post
It's easy to turn a blind eye
What would you do if your weren't happy with the state of a farm

Report it to SSPCA, much as I dislike them, and have done so in the case of a neighbour who left a dog on a chain, with someone coming in to feed and water once a day, and went away for three months. The case was taken up by another poster on here and eventually the dog was 'rescued' by a person or persons unknown when it became public knowledge. But we only knew about that case because it was beside the road and in full view. No action was taken against the owner who is known to be 'a bit odd'.

I would have no hesitation in jumping up and down and shouting when it comes to animal welfare. If SSPCA did nothing, I'd probably go to the newspapers and meantime delivery a few bales of hay (or dog biscuits!).

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Not necessarily.

Edited to say, probably ought to have known.

I am an old bachelor, living and working alone, and quite happy like that. (I suspect autism!). Often I won't speak to anyone for a couple of weeks. I am quite happy about that and I have always managed to feed livestock whatever. But I can see why some wouldn't be able o manage. I deleted several posts in reply to th, " Why not just buy feed?" post as they were probably too rude!

Wasn't it Marie Antoinette who asked why the people were rioting? When told it was because they had no bread, she suggested they should eat cake. That is how divorced some people are to the facts of life, even today.

You cant just buy feed if you have no money . Some do but that's another story
I had someone phone me last Autumn after feed . He had a fair few cows and very little feed . I told him there and then to get them gone . I knew from fact that he did not have the funds to winter them

 

[ollie989898]

I'm referring to your apparent point of view.
You seem very positive that it couldn't happen to anyone of any worth. I'm not so sure.
Sh*t happens -it clearly happened to these people.

I have not said that. I don't know what gave you that impression.

 

[ollie989898]

I am new to the world of keeping cattle, but I have had various forms of livestock though out my life. I think there is a range of what people think as acceptable livestock management, I have been to places where I thought the animals were kept in too small a space and up to mid cannon in s*it. There are lots of people who never seem to buy enough forage, like winter is never going to come.
There are some people who do not read and write, or if they do, not well,its not down to stupidity, but if they haven't go someone who feels competent handling paperwork and talking to people its a huge handicap. Who do you ask for help without losing your dignity? The world has changed so much in the last 10 years, its hard to buy anything with a card and an understanding of how money works and the paperwork that goes with it. I have son in law with a degree who can not ask the price of a bag of sweets in a shop, we are not all the same.
Farming is not just a business its a way of life for some people, you have perhaps inherited the land, bills and perhaps have elderly relatives to feed a water you end up doing a lot of things badly.
I suppose we never think we are going to need help, and asking for help is a big step. I turned up one day to find my mum who was townie, struggling with a round bale of hay to feed cows. It turned out my stepfather was ill in bed, all she had to do was phone I would have gone over to help. He didn't like paying anyone for anything and left a huge mess when he died, fortunately no livestock, but he was very secretive and would have not liked anyone knowing his business, there was always a fiddle somewhere.
Mental health is a growing problem, and there is a lot of resources being spent on it, but if you live in a house on its own, with perhaps elderly parents or partner, your only contact with outsiders the trip to do the weekly shop, and the odd trip to the GP surgery who is actually going to have a meaningful conversation with you or know what is going on. The GP on a home visit is not going to have a look round the cattle sheds.

At no point have I said I do not understand mental illness.

Everything else you have said leads me to conclude that there should be a license required to keep livestock, and that license can be withdrawn by the ministry at any time if they feel livestock are not being managed adequately or following veterinary advice on welfare grounds.

At the present time it is not a straight forward process to begin legal proceedings against someone on the grounds of animal welfare. Trading standards nor deathra are permitted to turn up and confiscate animals. They have to build a legal case and collect evidence and offer the farmer the chance to put their concerns in order.

As anyone involved with firearms knows, the requirement to hold a license means that the authorities can revoke it and thus it greatly simplifies dealing with people who are not keeping livestock correctly- you can confiscate them, or have them all destroyed if necessary and then claim the costs from the owner if needs be.

I still do not understand how the situation depicted in the OP was permitted to get as far as it did. Others have explained how getting behind with paperwork could foment such a scenario. If that were the case, should discrepancies in paperwork not trigger an automatic routine inspection of a farm?

The industry needs to be seen as being squeaky clean given the recent surge in activity from the vegan brigade and others have rightly acknowledged that mental illness could indeed hit anyone at any time. That being the case, there should some kind of system in place to ensure that the welfare of livestock is protected. As it stands neither the RSPCA or trading standards can do anything walk into a farm and seize animals there and then- there are limits to their power. I understand that the authorities can remove livestock but only with the owners consent- not always going to be forthcoming because a lot of people can be stubborn old buggers even if they are of sound mind.

Forget about this situation and discuss how such things may be prevented from going as far in future?

 

[JP1]

At no point have I said I do not understand mental illness.

Everything else you have said leads me to conclude that there should be a license required to keep livestock, and that license can be withdrawn by the ministry at any time if they feel livestock are not being managed adequately or following veterinary advice on welfare grounds.

At the present time it is not a straight forward process to begin legal proceedings against someone on the grounds of animal welfare. Trading standards nor deathra are permitted to turn up and confiscate animals. They have to build a legal case and collect evidence and offer the farmer the chance to put their concerns in order.

As anyone involved with firearms knows, the requirement to hold a license means that the authorities can revoke it and thus it greatly simplifies dealing with people who are not keeping livestock correctly- you can confiscate them, or have them all destroyed if necessary and then claim the costs from the owner if needs be.

I still do not understand how the situation depicted in the OP was permitted to get as far as it did. Others have explained how getting behind with paperwork could foment such a scenario. If that were the case, should discrepancies in paperwork not trigger an automatic routine inspection of a farm?

The industry needs to be seen as being squeaky clean given the recent surge in activity from the vegan brigade and others have rightly acknowledged that mental illness could indeed hit anyone at any time. That being the case, there should some kind of system in place to ensure that the welfare of livestock is protected. As it stands neither the RSPCA or trading standards can do anything walk into a farm and seize animals there and then- there are limits to their power. I understand that the authorities can remove livestock but only with the owners consent- not always going to be forthcoming because a lot of people can be stubborn old buggers even if they are of sound mind.

Forget about this situation and discuss how such things may be prevented from going as far in future?

Very slippery slope that

Downer cow under supervision from your own vet. Ministry arbiter called in. Vets will just play safe in future

Beast knocks a horn off during loading. That enough to remove your licence?

Store cattle outwintered ona hill and need improvement. What CS is an offence committed?

Three pigs in a pen consistently tailbaiting.

The list goes on

Not sure how old you are but some of your opinions come over as without any form of allowance for senility

 

[ollie989898]

Very slippery slope that

Downer cow under supervision from your own vet. Ministry arbiter called in. Vets will just play safe in future

Beast knocks a horn off during loading. That enough to remove your licence?

Store cattle outwintered ona hill and need improvement. What CS is an offence committed?

Three pigs in a pen consistently tailbaiting.

The list goes on

Not sure how old you are but some of your opinions come over as without any form of allowance for senility

Other professions manage....

 

[7610 super q]

Not many professions have the workplace at home, with extended family included.
Not many professions stroke about selling stuff at 1970's prices either...
Eh-oh, tin hat on, prepare for incoming flak, if you don't like it find another job, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah, ad nauseam....
Sorry, but agriculture really is different.
And licences won't do f**k all.

 

[JP1]

Other professions manage....

They don’t actually- they become totally risk averse

Just look at raw milk vending as an example

If you are really aged in hospital you are likely to die from avoidance of intervention

 

[hally]

The man I'm sure your talking about also decided it was better not to check ewes at all during lambing.
I'm lambing outside now with ewes that have had no feeding other than grass, I would never let a lamb starve to death because of miss mothering. Any lamb that cant keep up with its mother is bought inside and put on the machine.

As it should be, rearing orphans on a machine not only does cover its costs but is the right thing to do. All stocksman have a responsibility to do their best for their stock or we cant preach about UK standards of welfare to our customers.

 

[holywell farmer]

Bedding was non existent, cattle from pics were lying in filth, and feed for them looked scarce

 

[jendan]

At no point have I said I do not understand mental illness.

Everything else you have said leads me to conclude that there should be a license required to keep livestock, and that license can be withdrawn by the ministry at any time if they feel livestock are not being managed adequately or following veterinary advice on welfare grounds.

At the present time it is not a straight forward process to begin legal proceedings against someone on the grounds of animal welfare. Trading standards nor deathra are permitted to turn up and confiscate animals. They have to build a legal case and collect evidence and offer the farmer the chance to put their concerns in order.

As anyone involved with firearms knows, the requirement to hold a license means that the authorities can revoke it and thus it greatly simplifies dealing with people who are not keeping livestock correctly- you can confiscate them, or have them all destroyed if necessary and then claim the costs from the owner if needs be.

I still do not understand how the situation depicted in the OP was permitted to get as far as it did. Others have explained how getting behind with paperwork could foment such a scenario. If that were the case, should discrepancies in paperwork not trigger an automatic routine inspection of a farm?

The industry needs to be seen as being squeaky clean given the recent surge in activity from the vegan brigade and others have rightly acknowledged that mental illness could indeed hit anyone at any time. That being the case, there should some kind of system in place to ensure that the welfare of livestock is protected. As it stands neither the RSPCA or trading standards can do anything walk into a farm and seize animals there and then- there are limits to their power. I understand that the authorities can remove livestock but only with the owners consent- not always going to be forthcoming because a lot of people can be stubborn old buggers even if they are of sound mind.

Forget about this situation and discuss how such things may be prevented from going as far in future?

Trading standards with a Ministry/Defra vet can shoot animals on the spot,and they do! Nor do they need any permission to walk onto a farm! There are no limits to Trading Standard Power! They have more than the Police!

 

[Dry Rot]

You cant just buy feed if you have no money . Some do but that's another story
I had someone phone me last Autumn after feed . He had a fair few cows and very little feed . I told him there and then to get them gone . I knew from fact that he did not have the funds to winter them

That is the obvious solution. Sorry, I get a bit hot under the collar about animal welfare. Not you. but some have no idea how the other half live. I have never had a problem with putting an animal down, if that's what's needed, but some would rather let them linger on.

 

[puppet]

View attachment 790220
View attachment 790222

Plenty of grass on my fields in Feb. Photos from 8th of Feb on two farms I had tackers on.


I suspect our outlooks are very different as our circumstances are very different. I don't know about your available land area, but mine is extremely volatile year on year (and sometimes week to week!).

Our outlook is not so different as I would cull the thinner ones before tupping then feed the others later on if needed. I cannot suddenly find more grass in mid-winter. There are dairy farms round here who just have that much grass now on silage fields. . If I had that in February I would think I was under stocked.
As I have said before, same country but different world.

 

[Tarw Coch]

If you are really aged in hospital you are likely to die from avoidance of intervention

Having seen my father in hospital with non Hodgkin’s lymphoma and the onset of dimentia the care was actually quite shocking , food plonked in front of him and taken away 20 minutes later. He was basically starving to death. A friend of the family gave us the heads up on what was happening as they’d seen it before and from then on we made the effort to visit twice a day to feed him. Had he been left entirely in their care he would have starved to death, just like those cattle on that farm.

 

[Henarar]

Having seen my father in hospital with non Hodgkin’s lymphoma and the onset of dimentia the care was actually quite shocking , food plonked in front of him and taken away 20 minutes later. He was basically starving to death. A friend of the family gave us the heads up on what was happening as they’d seen it before and from then on we made the effort to visit twice a day to feed him. Had he been left entirely in their care he would have starved to death, just like those cattle on that farm.

Should those that should be caring for him see prison then ?

 

[Tarw Coch]

Should those that should be caring for him see prison then ?

The trouble with hospitals, there’s no continuity of care, different staff on each day, no one knows or cares what happens yesterday or tomorrow as they weren’t or won’t be there.

A few nurses were excellent, everything you think a nurse should be and more, what was more worrying was the shear number who were anywhere between just there to do a job, collect their wages and go home and those who were completely bloody useless.
I know one of the nurses on one ward dad was on very well, she’s had enough and is thinking about quitting because there are so many staff who are just useless which just puts more pressure on the good ones. The stories she tells me are quite frightening.

Despite not doing a very good job of looking after dad one thing the hospital did have plenty of resources and time to do was to put effort into trying to put dad into care as they said we couldn’t look after him properly. They were nothing short of bully’s when dealing with mother.

Most folk don’t want to believe this, they don’t like criticism of the nhs but I think it’s important to let people know, one day it might be their parents lying in hospital being neglected, remember this and make sure you keep an eye out for them, you might be the only chance they have.

 

[Scholsey]

At no point have I said I do not understand mental illness.

Everything else you have said leads me to conclude that there should be a license required to keep livestock, and that license can be withdrawn by the ministry at any time if they feel livestock are not being managed adequately or following veterinary advice on welfare grounds.

At the present time it is not a straight forward process to begin legal proceedings against someone on the grounds of animal welfare. Trading standards nor deathra are permitted to turn up and confiscate animals. They have to build a legal case and collect evidence and offer the farmer the chance to put their concerns in order.

As anyone involved with firearms knows, the requirement to hold a license means that the authorities can revoke it and thus it greatly simplifies dealing with people who are not keeping livestock correctly- you can confiscate them, or have them all destroyed if necessary and then claim the costs from the owner if needs be.

I still do not understand how the situation depicted in the OP was permitted to get as far as it did. Others have explained how getting behind with paperwork could foment such a scenario. If that were the case, should discrepancies in paperwork not trigger an automatic routine inspection of a farm?

The industry needs to be seen as being squeaky clean given the recent surge in activity from the vegan brigade and others have rightly acknowledged that mental illness could indeed hit anyone at any time. That being the case, there should some kind of system in place to ensure that the welfare of livestock is protected. As it stands neither the RSPCA or trading standards can do anything walk into a farm and seize animals there and then- there are limits to their power. I understand that the authorities can remove livestock but only with the owners consent- not always going to be forthcoming because a lot of people can be stubborn old buggers even if they are of sound mind.

Forget about this situation and discuss how such things may be prevented from going as far in future?

Imagine if this story made front page/headline news on a slow news day, if i didnt know anything about farming and i saw scenes like this and were made to think they were common (i bet its far more common than we think!) it would make you think long and hard about the beef industry. Sounds horrible but maybe there should be legislation in place to stop things like this happening, more inspections? higher minimum standards? whole life farm assurance? Compulsory routine vet visits?

 

[fgc325j]

Not necessarily.

Edited to say, probably ought to have known.

I am an old bachelor, living and working alone, and quite happy like that. (I suspect autism!). Often I won't speak to anyone for a couple of weeks. I am quite happy about that and I have always managed to feed livestock whatever. But I can see why some wouldn't be able o manage. I deleted several posts in reply to th, " Why not just buy feed?" post as they were probably too rude!

Wasn't it Marie Antoinette who asked why the people were rioting? When told it was because they had no bread, she suggested they should eat cake. That is how divorced some people are to the facts of life, even today.

But at least you are getting online and looking outwards. I have virtually given up on the pub because
the talk eventually revolves round gossip, whilst here you can, and do, learn something useful.