Scene of 'utter devastation' - neglect and death of 84 cattle

[ollie989898]

With an attitude like Ollies,when or if he qualifies,he will soon acquire the nickname of Dr.Death.

I was told a long time ago that should I enter the profession I will make decisions that result in someones lifespan being reduced or ending prematurely. Not maybe or possibly, im talking inevitably. You just have to accept it.

In fact, by the time I qualify I may be asked to actually do it. Only 24% of doctors so far jave indicated they would be prepared to carry out treatments of that nature.

Now tell me you dont want someone of my character and nature in the job and would prefer the NHS to rely solely of foreign doctors?

I can tell you this now I have no intention of ever working within the realms of private medicine- I dont believe in it due to my personal experiences of it.

 

[Johngee]

Just backtracked and it would appear that I have read two 'Wales on Line' reports where one refers to two brothers and the other refers to mother and son.

I'm now confused!

You're quite right, there were two cases very near each other, the two brothers were in court back in February. I know a little about them as my parents in law live nearby. Standards of husbandry had declined for 10-15 years since their dad died. Cattle were kept outside all winter, no dehorning or castrating, breeding freely. Very little silage made so fodder had to be bought in.
Then they had a dispute with the council over a bridleway spending 1000's on lawyers, so they had no money to buy bales. They shut themselves off, blocking access to the farm with vehicles. Then the beast from the east struck. Things came to light when their mother died last April and the undertaker walked to the yard and found 15 dead cows there. There were many more around the farm, can't remember how many.
As with the Coopers what struck me was how it went to this stage. They would have had a TB test in the autumn i guess, couldn't the vet liaise with the council about stock that are at risk? Make sure that they get visited regularly?

 

[RushesToo]

Hats off to you Fred, and your late Mum.

Funnily enough, i have heard several stories over the years regarding stock keeping families and their attitude, (and acceptance of), the ends of lives.
And often, they're reassuringly straight forward and near to the heart.

As my own Pa lay in an impersonal hospital bed, failing fast (a major stroke, after a long slide down), the sister got me on the phone, and said I'd better come in. the end was coming.
I'd been in the night before and said my goodbyes, so I explained that I wasn't likely to get there, as we had hay on the floor.
The sister was perplexed, and tried to re-assert that this was the time to be with him.
I demurred...imagine what he'd have said if he knew...leaving hay to spoil!

After 30 plus years, I'm still quite comfortable with this.
His last words to me - a couple of nights previous- were '....and don't pay too much for Art's sheep!' (an old pal of his had a sale that week, including a hill flock)

@Red Fred @egbert My father lived through a war and decided at the age of 98 it was time to give up, I had seen him the week before and he was frail but lacking lust for life. He probably had a minor stroke and had has said he didn't want to see 100. The Dr's left enough morphine to kill a cow. The instructions were to use it "wisely". I returned when he was no longer conscious and did that.
My only regret was that it wasn't used wisely enough, I think he would have liked to have gone quicker that the 72 hours it took.
I thought this was a very grown up response to dying and being humane with it. The NHS excelled themselves - they didn't even check the amount of morphine unused and then signed off his death as "old age", not until now known as a fatal disease.

I thought this was a very grown up response from a massive organisation that just wanted "Do the right thing" to happen.

 

[Christoph1945]

Johngee,

Like a great many things about farming, the situations are completely new to me and I am extremely stunned by the events that have taken place. I suppose, with the siege mentality operating on that farm, we are lucky that the brothers didn't come out shooting!

 

[egbert]

@Red Fred @egbert My father lived through a war and decided at the age of 98 it was time to give up, I had seen him the week before and he was frail but lacking lust for life. He probably had a minor stroke and had has said he didn't want to see 100. The Dr's left enough morphine to kill a cow. The instructions were to use it "wisely". I returned when he was no longer conscious and did that.
My only regret was that it wasn't used wisely enough, I think he would have liked to have gone quicker that the 72 hours it took.
I thought this was a very grown up response to dying and being humane with it. The NHS excelled themselves - they didn't even check the amount of morphine unused and then signed off his death as "old age", not until now known as a fatal disease.

I thought this was a very grown up response from a massive organisation that just wanted "Do the right thing" to happen.

thank you Rushes Too.
I suspect such wisdom is applied more than we realise.

98 is a good ole number mind, and lucid too, from the sound of it!

 

[Tarw Coch]

Coming back to this, and please don’t take it personally, but one error in every 300 business critical records is actually pretty poor. I certainly wouldn’t accept that from any company I was investing in. Human error probabilities without any checking should be at least an order of magnitude better than that.

Depends how you define critical. Whilst it is a requirement to report the death of any animal to BCMS is it really a critical matter if one gets missed occasionally.

 

[gone up the hill]

I speak only as I find. The NHS is an absolutely huge organisation and I have no doubt that parts of are less that ideal.

I have asked dozens of patients if they are satisfied with the care they have recieved over their time and only one had anything that constituted a complaint.

NHS is in one hell of a mess.

There is more cases of people getting incorrect/ no treatment etc than there are people that have had the correct treatment from the outset.

ALL doctors must have empathy, you have NONE of that quality Ollie and therefore will make a bad doctor if you ever qualify and from your posts and blind denial about the NHS failings it is very clear that you are going into the medical industry for all the wrong reasons.

Are you aware of the two young doctors ( no connection ) that committed suicide in the SW in the last two years due to work pressure??

 

[multi power]

Depends how you define critical. Whilst it is a requirement to report the death of any animal to BCMS is it really a critical matter if one gets missed occasionally.

Whilst it could be argued a passport or ear tags in a live animal could be important notification of the death of an animal really isn't a big deal, but of course the jobsworths make it important, more important than tending to those that are alive

 

[RushesToo]

NHS is in one hell of a mess.

There is more cases of people getting incorrect/ no treatment etc than there are people that have had the correct treatment from the outset.

ALL doctors must have empathy, you have NONE of that quality Ollie and therefore will make a bad doctor if you ever qualify and from your posts and blind denial about the NHS failings it is very clear that you are going into the medical industry for all the wrong reasons.

Are you aware of the two young doctors ( no connection ) that committed suicide in the SW in the last two years due to work pressure??

@gone up the hill This is not true, the NHS is so cheap because it is so good. They achieve better than others by not wasting money on treatment that is not required. There are no statistics that back up your claim of more getting incorrect treatment compared to correct, apart from your own experience.

I agree with you on the fact that all doctors must have empathy, this is an art not a skill and some people have it and some don't. Doctoring is a science, being a doctor requires more than that.

I refer you to my example of correct treatment and empathy here:
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...eath-of-84-cattle.282326/page-14#post-6201690

 

[primmiemoo]

I speak only as I find. The NHS is an absolutely huge organisation and I have no doubt that parts of are less that ideal.

I have asked dozens of patients if they are satisfied with the care they have recieved over their time and only one had anything that constituted a complaint.

Not everyone is an expert on the ailments that they might be living with, and most people start from the basis of not wanting to make a fuss. Most patients are quite humble in their relationships with their healthcare professionals, even now, in the increasingly overentitled C21st.
If they complain, it will be, for example, to a Nurse - who'll more often than not see how the individual professionals within the system work, and take steps to alter things from within (if brave enough to risk the penalties of whistleblowing). It won't necessarily be to a student.

 

[gone up the hill]

@gone up the hill This is not true, the NHS is so cheap because it is so good. They achieve better than others by not wasting money on treatment that is not required. There are no statistics that back up your claim of more getting incorrect treatment compared to correct, apart from your own experience.

I agree with you on the fact that all doctors must have empathy, this is an art not a skill and some people have it and some don't. Doctoring is a science, being a doctor requires more than that.

I refer you to my example of correct treatment and empathy here:
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...eath-of-84-cattle.282326/page-14#post-6201690

Not my own experience's but they are of many others that I know of and could list.

However its clear that the NHS is currently a shambles and far too much money is wasted by staff who are making far too many mistakes for example in sending out appointment dates for scanning after the date that the scan was due to take place.

 

[Tarw Coch]

I will tell you the biggest problem with the elderly in hospitals.

A lot of them don't want to be interfered with at all. You will find that medical staff have to be quite harsh with many of them because they can be very recalcitrant even when they are of sound mind. Others will complain and groan as if they are being tortured violently with even the simplest and most gentle treatments. 'On a scale of 1-10 what is your pain level?' Answer: '10'. Which is almost always a life. I've seen people with pain that is probably a 10- they are fairly easy to spot.

The second biggest problem is their relatives.

Hospitals are not care homes. In many instances, admitting someone to a ward is actually counter-productive. Firstly, you are more likely to catch a bug, second, elderly people in an unfamiliar environment often struggle to do much for themselves without hugely increased risks of falling etc, and third, the longer you lie or sit around being waited on hand and foot, the less able you will become- you lose muscle mass and tone at an astonishing rate by being laid in bed all day and it also places an additional burden on the circulation.

People who are disenfranchised with the NHS but fully qualified do not stay there long- they can earn more money in other sectors of care.

Yes I’ve heard this the biggest problem the nhs face is the relatives not the patients, no wonder, it must be damn inconvenient having relatives standing up for the rights of their relatives.

You don’t need to tell me about the elderly loosing muscle when confined to bed, just over 3 years ago just before Christmas dad was admitted to hospital with pneumonia, the GP had seen him at home and said that whilst he could be treated at home, his recovery would be much quicker for a spell in hospital where he could be put on a drip and would be out for Christmas. Well , that didn’t happen and the hospital went into partial shutdown over the Christmas period where no decisions were made as the consultants were on holiday. Come the new year and we couldn’t get any sense out of them when dad would be coming home, having seen how poorly dad was treated in a previous visit to hospital mother visited him every day without fail to feed him and I would take her again in the evening almost without fail, I did miss a few evenings when our relief milker would visit instead and feed him. Not sure why but one day I just happened to take mother in the daytime and it’s just as well I did, they called us into a side office to discuss his being put into care. Mother stated it wasn’t his or our wish for him to go into care and that he’d be coming home. Ohh came the reply, you’ve changed your mind have you! They then proceeded to basic bully mother into putting dad into care. She certainly hadn’t changed her mind , there was no way she’d let that happen allthough I’m sure if I hadn’t been there they’d have ground her down, they kept calling for backup and in the end there was 5 hospital staff, doctors, consultants sisters whoever they may have been and that went on for over two hours, you’d have thought the hard pressed NHS had better things for their skilled employees to do. Nothing was resolved that day, but it certainly wasn’t the last of them trying to bully mother into putting dad into care, it was extremely hard on mother, the way they treated her was nothing short of harassment. To cut a long story short, ended up he was in there for seven weeks, pneumonia long since treated just arguing about what to do with him. In all that time they didn’t get him out of bed once, just left him there in pads/nappies. Up until he was admitted he was reasonably mobile around the house and even managed the occasional walk down the yard .
Seven weeks in hospital took its toll but once home we got him mobile again but much less so than before, since then he needs a Zimmer frame and support to walk very short distances yet they, the NHS, said we couldn’t look after him properly, 7 weeks they left him in bed without so much as trying to get him on his feet, he has been on his feet every day since apart from another short spell in hospital, I could tell you of NHS incompetence on that visit too such as prescription medicines not administered, as time goes by we learn, we now photograph all his medical notes, they’re full of inconsistencies.

So I repeat my advice to anyone who has elderly relatives in hospital, you need to watch them like a hawk because there’s a substantial amount of NHS staff that are incompetent/don’t care. Yes, I’m sure one of the biggest thorns in their side is relatives, relatives who see just how bad they treat the elderly and challenge them, if it wasn’t for relatives I’m sure they’d get away with more neglect.

 

[Tarw Coch]

NHS is in one hell of a mess.

There is more cases of people getting incorrect/ no treatment etc than there are people that have had the correct treatment from the outset.

ALL doctors must have empathy, you have NONE of that quality Ollie and therefore will make a bad doctor if you ever qualify and from your posts and blind denial about the NHS failings it is very clear that you are going into the medical industry for all the wrong reasons.

Are you aware of the two young doctors ( no connection ) that committed suicide in the SW in the last two years due to work pressure??

And there I was thinking Ollie was an agronomist not a trainee doctor, his attitude here explains a lot, he will fit in the system as a doctor perfectly.

 

[Will 1594]

And there I was thinking Ollie was an agronomist not a trainee doctor, his attitude here explains a lot, he will fit in the system as a doctor perfectly.

I wonder what he is ,seems to be learned on every subject , maybe more fitting down some 5 inch layflat

 

[primmiemoo]

And there I was thinking Ollie was an agronomist not a trainee doctor, his attitude here explains a lot, he will fit in the system as a doctor perfectly.

Let's not demonise Ollie further, please. There are aspects of medicine that demand a cold distance, and maybe the tempering and moulding of finer traits come later. All of us start out green.


I was wondering if there's a clash of systems within the NHS at the moment. My mum had a horrendously long wait late one day for a set of very ordinary tests needed at short notice, because the a particular job in the District Hospital was not only unfilled, but no longer existed.
Somebody somewhere had considered it unnecessary - part of an efficiency drive - which meant that every patient who needed that set of very ordinary tests at short notice late in the day had a horrendously long wait. Those booked in well in advance or early in the day, found the set of tests were slotted together as they should be, and had an easy visit.

There are systems that work perfectly to make and deliver, let's say, widgets to a factory assembly line - rigid frameworks, perfect in mechanical situations - and systems that work perfectly within situations that involve living things - flexibility being key.

As farmers, we develop an instinct for when and where to deploy each so that they work best, even when (as I'm finding at this very moment) it's difficult to articulate the difference to other parties.

Somewhere, within the tragedy of the OP (a request for help going without a response, might it have been because it lacked a key word for the hearer to action?) and within the NHS (false economies?), there are misapplications of systems, with the easier, mechanical sort taking precedence. Easier to cost up, perhaps?

 

[Highland Mule]

Whilst it could be argued a passport or ear tags in a live animal could be important notification of the death of an animal really isn't a big deal, but of course the jobsworths make it important, more important than tending to those that are alive

I was calling the admin as business critical as many up thread have argued it as the basis for not being able to trade and sell animals, thereby condemning them to a death in squalor.

 

[glasshouse]

Let's not demonise Ollie further, please. There are aspects of medicine that demand a cold distance, and maybe the tempering and moulding of finer traits come later. All of us start out green.


I was wondering if there's a clash of systems within the NHS at the moment. My mum had a horrendously long wait late one day for a set of very ordinary tests needed at short notice, because the a particular job in the District Hospital was not only unfilled, but no longer existed.
Somebody somewhere had considered it unnecessary - part of an efficiency drive - which meant that every patient who needed that set of very ordinary tests at short notice late in the day had a horrendously long wait. Those booked in well in advance or early in the day, found the set of tests were slotted together as they should be, and had an easy visit.

There are systems that work perfectly to make and deliver, let's say, widgets to a factory assembly line - rigid frameworks, perfect in mechanical situations - and systems that work perfectly within situations that involve living things - flexibility being key.

As farmers, we develop an instinct for when and where to deploy each so that they work best, even when (as I'm finding at this very moment) it's difficult to articulate the difference to other parties.

Somewhere, within the tragedy of the OP (a request for help going without a response, might it have been because it lacked a key word for the hearer to action?) and within the NHS (false economies?), there are misapplications of systems, with the easier, mechanical sort taking precedence. Easier to cost up, perhaps?

Doctors generally consider themselves above everyone else. Ollie is a prime example.

 

[Scholsey]

And there I was thinking Ollie was an agronomist not a trainee doctor, his attitude here explains a lot, he will fit in the system as a doctor perfectly.

I wonder how many of you criticising doctors would refuse care from one when you or your family seriously need it? Am sure you would soon have a very short memory.

 

[Tarw Coch]

I wonder how many of you criticising doctors would refuse care from one when you or your family seriously need it? Am sure you would soon have a very short memory.

I allways thought that when in hospital people would receive the best care possible, experience has shown that to not necessarily be the case. We have no choice but to entrust ourselves to the medical profession when in need but I certainly dont have blind faith in them, it would seem they are just as capable of screwing up or being incompetent as any other member of society, and no doubt just as in any other profession, some are far better at their job than others. You should of seen the look of horror on mother’s face one night about 12 months ago when we realised that dad needed to go into hospital, previous experience has been extremely tough on mother but as someone who deals with livestock daily I know when I’m out of my depth and professional help is required, dad had an infection in his cheek, the GP had prescribed antibiotics but he’d only had a couple of pills on a week long course of 24, he was hot and unresponsive, getting him to hospital was the only thing to do despite all the fears and memory’s of what had gone before.

But elderly care does seem to be a real problem, on the times dad has been in hospital we have met people, complete strangers who are equally frustrated at how the system operates, we also talk to people who have had or know of people who have had similar bad experiences .

 

[Tarw Coch]

I was calling the admin as business critical as many up thread have argued it as the basis for not being able to trade and sell animals, thereby condemning them to a death in squalor.

A cock up on the occasional passport isn’t the same as having little or no paperwork whatsoever and whilst no paperwork will prevent trade it certainly doesn’t prevent them from being fed. An animal with no paperwork can still be shot and sent off, no loss as it’s worthless as regards trade, there is no requirement or justification to starve them to death.