By definition anything I don't do whilst still growing a good profitable and clean crop would indeed be a waste of money / diesel
Pretty hard to argue logically with that I reckon !
Seeing Less Blackgrass
- Thread starter FarmerBruce
- Start date
By definition anything I don't do whilst still growing a good profitable and clean crop would indeed be a waste of money / diesel
Pretty hard to argue logically with that I reckon !
Min till is a grassweed car crash imo - last thing you want to be doing if you want to deal with bg
Either zerotill or plough (if you must and have spare time / money to burn) , mintill is the worst of both worlds
warksfarmer
Member
I disagree and why we still have a big armoury of herbicides to use. Anybody today controlling BG with chemistry is on the road to nowhere and cocked up royally about 10 years ago. The BG will beat you full stop.
We have hardly used the likes of avedex, Atlantis, Crystal etc over the last 10 years preferring rotation, very high seed rates and reduced soil movement.
As you say we could do pre-em and post em on the field in question but we won't be as spring cropping for us sees that field very clean. Why spend on chemistry if you can do it other ways but knowing you've got all the chemistry there if needed.
warksfarmer
Member
We are mainly Edgar and have been for 5 years. BG grows in it as well as any other wheat here.
- Location
- Warwickshire
By min till I mean Trio & stale seedbed after rape rather than plough
Trio, solo, topdown ...... whatever brand all as bad as each other imo. As I say - worst of both worlds and grass weed nirvana
Zerotill or plough but step away from this daft mintill trend that really has been a big part of the rise of grass weeds in the last decade or so
warksfarmer
Member
Deep working yes as that's a bad idea mixing it through the entire soil profile as you will always unearth some at some point every year whatever system you use.
However! I've seen one instance where a farmer had 400 plants/m2 and got it down to 4 by continually moving the soil very shallowly. So combine leaves the field and he went in with his tined min disturbance drill at drilling depth and drilled the field effectively without seed. He repeated this process 2-3 times before actually drilling wheat in late October early November and only using glyphosate once in that which he timed when he got the best flush. He was using spring crops as well and would move the soil 1-2 more times before spring drilling. Each time in with the drill he changed the direction this moving all the soil eventually at drilling depth and thus chitting all BG seeds within the top 1 inch of soil. He was using a relatively light tractor/drill so compaction wasn't an issue proved with soil profile pits.
Another situation but no idea on previous levels of plants but again multiple shallow passes with C tine spring tines and spring crops have drastically reduced levels on another farm.
At the end of the day if you leave the seeds underground untouched then they are still there. If you keep chitting them and killing them, then they arnt dropping new seeds are they!
However! I've seen one instance where a farmer had 400 plants/m2 and got it down to 4 by continually moving the soil very shallowly. So combine leaves the field and he went in with his tined min disturbance drill at drilling depth and drilled the field effectively without seed. He repeated this process 2-3 times before actually drilling wheat in late October early November and only using glyphosate once in that which he timed when he got the best flush. He was using spring crops as well and would move the soil 1-2 more times before spring drilling. Each time in with the drill he changed the direction this moving all the soil eventually at drilling depth and thus chitting all BG seeds within the top 1 inch of soil. He was using a relatively light tractor/drill so compaction wasn't an issue proved with soil profile pits.
Another situation but no idea on previous levels of plants but again multiple shallow passes with C tine spring tines and spring crops have drastically reduced levels on another farm.
At the end of the day if you leave the seeds underground untouched then they are still there. If you keep chitting them and killing them, then they arnt dropping new seeds are they!
- Location
- Chipping Norton
I couldn't disagree more, we have plenty of clients who are seeing their blackgrass populations reduce by following the principles of CA.
Not if they continue to drill in September,it matters not a jot what drill you have or what practices you follow it will catch you out
There is absolutely no problem at all with a shallow pass with the discs / carrier. Simply isnt.
yellow belly
Member
- Location
- south west lincolnshire
Where I have grown spring crops there is a gradual reduction in bg problems in those blocks
This rain we have had this week will promote bg in the rape crops to germinate and produce enough seeds to keep it going
Before ipu the only solution to bg was rotation
Of crops drilling dates and cultivations
In those day most bg land was heavy with old drainage system so ploughing was the best system
With redrainage and moledraining low disturbances drilling is now effective I find that with notill pre em sprayed are much more effective as the were when we burnt and scratched min till colder winters also reduce bg germination between November and march
Imho I reluctantly believe ploughing has it place on heavy land that is not drained with a moleable system
We have less bg this year because the wheat blocks I have are on land that has not had rape in a wet cold summer
There is now plenty germinating in all fields where there was seed shed last year if this crop is followed by a spring crop the bg seed produced in July is likely be less dormant as it mature in hotter weather
This rain we have had this week will promote bg in the rape crops to germinate and produce enough seeds to keep it going
Before ipu the only solution to bg was rotation
Of crops drilling dates and cultivations
In those day most bg land was heavy with old drainage system so ploughing was the best system
With redrainage and moledraining low disturbances drilling is now effective I find that with notill pre em sprayed are much more effective as the were when we burnt and scratched min till colder winters also reduce bg germination between November and march
Imho I reluctantly believe ploughing has it place on heavy land that is not drained with a moleable system
We have less bg this year because the wheat blocks I have are on land that has not had rape in a wet cold summer
There is now plenty germinating in all fields where there was seed shed last year if this crop is followed by a spring crop the bg seed produced in July is likely be less dormant as it mature in hotter weather
- Location
- Chipping Norton
With no-till you need to drill earlier, in the autumn, to overcome the lack of mineralisation, and when the soil conditions are good - most likely September. As I said BG populations are on the decline in these circumstances (plus many other factors), sorry to disagree but it's what I see every day.
i would agree with shallow (very) stale seedbed creation / termination but mixing grassweed seed up in a 10" soil profile with a solo or topdown is madness, as is glyphosate on a stale seedbed followed by a pass with a CULTIVATOR drill
average farmer
Member
- Location
- North Notts
Yes a combi is much better or a power Harrow in front of cultivator drill better still imo
FarmerBruce
Member
- Location
- Yorkshire
Still so far so good. We've had considerable, separate patchs in 3 different fields for the last 2 years which I've round-upped off in the crop then chitted 2/3 times each year then thrown the kitchen sink at it this year and there is not one plant to be found!
What does blackgrass like? Rough seedbeds, winter cropping, N fertiliser, soil disturbance, waterlogging that reduces the competitiveness of the crop. Remove or reduce those and you will stand a chance of winning a few battles. The tools for doing it include multiple herbicides, true inversion ploughing (rotationally), spring cropping, longer rotations that allow different control methods, stale seedbeds, crop competition, low disturbance.
Change the environment and you will change your weed spectrum.
Here, there will be some BG seed return on heavy land that has always had the weed. That land is now due 2 years of spring cropping and the worst will get a 3 year ley to break the cycle.
Change the environment and you will change your weed spectrum.
Here, there will be some BG seed return on heavy land that has always had the weed. That land is now due 2 years of spring cropping and the worst will get a 3 year ley to break the cycle.
Fred Clarke
New Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Cant agree more, but then maybe I am biased working in the drainage industry. It always amazes me that all the BG conversations revolve around chemicals, crop rotations, tillage method etc, but very few people associate good drainage with helping BG control! I have looked and never found any research or findings that have looked at this properly. When I talk to some of the drainage contractors that we supply about their experiences, they all recognise that it is part of the fight. A number of them can recall fields that have high BG problems, they drain them and the following years they see reduced BG? It would be interesting to hear from land owners and growers that have any experience of the effects of land drainage on BG control.
Any comments?
