Sequesting carbon

[Clive]

My point really. Can we say that an individual farmer selling carbon credits is going to have no wider consequences, on the industry as a whole, on the environment, on society ? I don't think we can because we haven't had the debate.



Agreed. On that basis the NFU can scrap their net zero by 2040 thing, because we are already there.

selling C storage/ sequestration can do no harm its a natural process and nothing new - there is a debate to be had about GE, its new tech

and yes - as usual the NFU were talking utter rubbish about nett zero. i said at the time they clearly had not a clue what they were talking about !

 

[Clive]

This is the thing though isn't it? Any allocation of responsibilty needs to be fair. Yara have to take some of the blame for the N they produce but they shouldn't take all of it. Equally farmers can't absolve themselves of all responsibility because we COULD use only organic N, but ultimately the consumer has to shoulder the blame because it's them that's demanding the product. But again, they could for instance choose organic for whatever reason. But I suppose I've ended up arguing for a carbon tax that would be applied like VAT is currently but with it on food at the end of the chain. Oops.

And of course this is a waaaay bigger subject than merely food. The fossil fuel companies are being blamed for everything too but they are simply meeting a demand.

“blame” doesn’t matter as long as consistent

if i take Yara’s C footprint then i will
push mine to my grain buyers .....

 

[delilah]

selling C storage/ sequestration can do no harm its a natural process and nothing new

It's not the physical process that needs debate. It's the financial/ structural/ social implications of trading it.

“blame” doesn’t matter as long as consistent

Which is my point about it taking off in a legislative vacuum. From what you have said there are no rules, so how can there be consistency ?

The biggest UK based buyer of carbon credits will be Tesco. If you are all happy with that, then crack on. Just stop whingeing on here about corporate control of your farms.

 

[Clive]

It's not the physical process that needs debate. It's the financial/ structural/ social implications of trading it.



Which is my point about it taking off in a legislative vacuum. From what you have said there are no rules, so how can there be consistency ?

The biggest UK based buyer of carbon credits will be Tesco. If you are all happy with that, then crack on. Just stop whingeing on here about corporate control of your farms.

why does it need consistency? its worth what a buyer will pay ........ like bottled water, different brands for different buyers at different price points

i don’t forsee a set value until a carbon tax is introduced - Gentle Farming is an example of this, it aims to sell more than just carbon at a premium price, buyers are corporates looking tick their “corporate social responsibility” or markers boxes - no one HAS to buy yet .... but some want to

 

[hendrebc]

farm in a defined way to benefit ecosystems and sequest and store C

How long are you having to ensure it says there?
Because the only agreements I've seen are very long and very tying. Like 35 years and so.e pretty harsh penalties if the level ever goes down.

 

[Clive]

How long are you having to ensure it says there?
Because the only agreements I've seen are very long and very tying. Like 35 years and so.e pretty harsh penalties if the level ever goes down.

while someone keeps paying me ! stop and there is no guarantee

not selling tonnes - selling a land/ soil management method that improves ecosystems and stores / sequesters C

customers can choose to support that or not

 

[N.Yorks.]

happy buyers and happy sellers is all a market needs

not sure there is need for legislation, let the markets decide

Was hoping to keep out of this thread!!
Clive there wouldn't be a carbon market if it wasn't imposed by legislation...... business would carry on burying their heads in the sand until Hull (suggested in other thread by @Brisel) ended up in the sea at which point everyone would wake up.

The market will only last for so long..... once industry has evolved to renewable power then there'll be little need. The carbon market is a cost imposed on carbon producers to kick their arses into renewables. It is transitory......

The big thing will be how do we actually reduce atmospheric carbon after pumping it into the atmosphere for 100+ years once everyone has stopped emitting carbon? What will the mechanism be for that as offsetting won't exist. It may well be a straightforward calculation based on the estimnated cost of not reducing atmospheric carbon due to damage to human interest worldwide.........

 

[Brisel]

happy buyers and happy sellers is all a market needs

not sure there is need for legislation, let the markets decide

Exactly. The worst thing a market needs is politicians interfering in it, (unless we're getting shafted!)

 

[N.Yorks.]

why does it need consistency? its worth what a buyer will pay ........ like bottled water, different brands for different buyers at different price points

i don’t forsee a set value until a carbon tax is introduced - Gentle Farming is an example of this, it aims to sell more than just carbon at a premium price, buyers are corporates looking tick their “corporate social responsibility” or markers boxes - no one HAS to buy yet .... but some want to

You don't hand over £2 for an undisclosed bottle size of evian. When you take it off the shelf it is plain to see that £2 buys a 2 litre bottle........... (I won't bother asking you again how you are measuring your ecosystem services for Gentle Farming? )

 

[Brisel]

Was hoping to keep out of this thread!!
Clive there wouldn't be a carbon market if it wasn't imposed by legislation...... business would carry on burying their heads in the sand until Hull (suggested in other thread by @Brisel) ended up in the sea at which point everyone would wake up.

The market will only last for so long..... once industry has evolved to renewable power then there'll be little need. The carbon market is a cost imposed on carbon producers to kick their arses into renewables. It is transitory......

The big thing will be how do we actually reduce atmospheric carbon after pumping it into the atmosphere for 100+ years once everyone has stopped emitting carbon? What will the mechanism be for that as offsetting won't exist. It may well be a straightforward calculation based on the estimnated cost of not reducing atmospheric carbon due to damage to human interest worldwide.........

In that other thread I did say that we were selling carbon credits on new forestry in 2011.

 

[N.Yorks.]

In that other thread I did say that we were selling carbon credits on new forestry in 2011.

Your comment about Hull stuck in my head!!!
2011 yes, well ahead of the curve. Would like to know who was thinking that way, understand if confidential!

 

[egbert]

farm in a defined way to benefit ecosystems and sequest and store C

how long are you liable? Is it freehold land -if so are you creating a 'charge' on it?
Is it rented, does your landlord inherit that charge?

Can someone come along in 50 years and 'mine' all that C - by different farming methods ?

(I'm not going at you for taking the money, I'm asking the questions that someone looking in should be asking)

I like your take on where the C buck stops/starts though. a good analogy.

 

[egbert]

while someone keeps paying me ! stop and there is no guarantee

not selling tonnes - selling a land/ soil management method that improves ecosystems and stores / sequesters C

customers can choose to support that or not

oh...I see.

Well, take the money @Clive ...it's not your fault it's just short term nonsense.
Won't make a hap'worth of difference to the greenland ice cap!

 

[Brisel]

Your comment about Hull stuck in my head!!!
2011 yes, well ahead of the curve. Would like to know who was thinking that way, understand if confidential!

I'm not taking any credit for the 2011 carbon sale. Our forestry consultant was well connected & he looked after tens of thousands of acres of trees. He knew how to work a spreadsheet to justify taking arable land from the farm & needed every possible income stream to make it pay. It was a done deal before I got to hear about it.

Would you mourn the loss of Hull?

 

[delilah]

Carbon trading will be voluntary, no-one will be obliged to join in, if it doesn't work for you then you can drop out, it wont have any direct impact on a business not wishing to take part.
Was the same not said of Red Tractor at its inception ? Genuine question, I was elsewhere at the time.

 

[N.Yorks.]

oh...I see.

Well, take the money @Clive ...it's not your fault it's just short term nonsense.
Won't make a hap'worth of difference to the greenland ice cap!

What would make a difference to the Greenland ice cap?

 

[N.Yorks.]

while someone keeps paying me ! stop and there is no guarantee

not selling tonnes - selling a land/ soil management method that improves ecosystems and stores / sequesters C

customers can choose to support that or not

Suppose you've got to be in it to win it!!!

 

[Brisel]

Carbon trading will be voluntary, no-one will be obliged to join in, if it doesn't work for you then you can drop out, it wont have any direct impact on a business not wishing to take part.
Was the same not said of Red Tractor at its inception ? Genuine question, I was elsewhere at the time.

I fear that all businesses will be obliged to do carbon auditing, whether as a condition of market access or government legislation. Miss Thunberg's legacy will live on.

 

[delilah]

I fear that all businesses will be obliged to do carbon auditing, whether as a condition of market access or government legislation. Miss Thunberg's legacy will live on.

I can't see how it will be Greta's fault. From what I have read coming out of the NFU, and the way our progressive leading lights in the industry are embracing it, we will chalk this one down as yet another own goal.

 

[Clive]

how long are you liable? Is it freehold land -if so are you creating a 'charge' on it?
Is it rented, does your landlord inherit that charge?

Can someone come along in 50 years and 'mine' all that C - by different farming methods ?

(I'm not going at you for taking the money, I'm asking the questions that someone looking in should be asking)

I like your take on where the C buck stops/starts though. a good analogy.

12months

no longer term liability, im selling, i set the terms

don’t like them ? don’t buy

don’t over think this JFDI !