Sfi/elms

Wombat

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
East yorks
Nope, even though we do most of it already. I think some have said they will do it as it tops them up to nearly what bps was for the next year but even if we put everything in we are still less and I will see how it pans out for a bit. It looks like it will end up a 3rd of bps and I will look for other ways to get the money back rather than trust the rpa and defra.
 

Tucker86

Member
Arable Farmer
Nope, even though we do most of it already. I think some have said they will do it as it tops them up to nearly what bps was for the next year but even if we put everything in we are still less and I will see how it pans out for a bit. It looks like it will end up a 3rd of bps and I will look for other ways to get the money back rather than trust the rpa and defra.
That’s the bit I can’t understand , as it stands at the moment farming it far out weighs what you would get from the scheme , especially when you factor in the costs , yet some big estates are planning to put a lot in ? Unless that was before the prices where released
 

Formatted

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
SE
The majority of the ELMs budget (£2.8 billion, down from £3.2 billion BPS) will be going into Tier 2 and 3, limited take-up of Tier 1 (SFI) is probably what they want as means they'll be more demand for Tier 2 and they'll be an increased budget for it.
 

Tucker86

Member
Arable Farmer
The majority of the ELMs budget (£2.8 billion, down from £3.2 billion BPS) will be going into Tier 2 and 3, limited take-up of Tier 1 (SFI) is probably what they want as means they'll be more demand for Tier 2 and they'll be an increased budget for it.
It will still have to go up considerably before it can beat farming it , I can’t see it going to that much , plus it’s not like bps you have costs associated with it aswell
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Yesterday on the fertiliser price tracker thread I asked;

"What I would really like to know is if anyone has done any calculations around fert/ grain prices and the subsequent value per acre for growing crops next year. It would be very interesting to compare those values with ELMS and see which paid best for buffers, margins etc."

Whichever way I look, I see productive land being rather valuable in the next few years. The high price and/or low availability of fertiliser will put a premium on forage, grains and probably everything else.
I think many people were looking to put a portion of land into ELMS as a 'safety net' but committing it for years at such low rates of return with a long list of requirements that they can change, is looking like a liability.
 

ajd132

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Suffolk
Yesterday on the fertiliser price tracker thread I asked;

"What I would really like to know is if anyone has done any calculations around fert/ grain prices and the subsequent value per acre for growing crops next year. It would be very interesting to compare those values with ELMS and see which paid best for buffers, margins etc."

Whichever way I look, I see productive land being rather valuable in the next few years. The high price and/or low availability of fertiliser will put a premium on forage, grains and probably everything else.
I think many people were looking to put a portion of land into ELMS as a 'safety net' but committing it for years at such low rates of return with a long list of requirements that they can change, is looking like a liability.
The highest tier in the original figures laid out was quite easy to achieve about £140/ha plus £110 per hectare for cover crops but they haven’t released updated details of that yet.
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
The highest tier in the original figures laid out was quite easy to achieve about £140/ha plus £110 per hectare for cover crops but they haven’t released updated details of that yet.

I can't comment for arable farms, that is why I was interested in the sums.

For a livestock farm, doing plenty of public good, it really isn't worth it.
 

Tucker86

Member
Arable Farmer
The highest tier in the original figures laid out was quite easy to achieve about £140/ha plus £110 per hectare for cover crops but they haven’t released updated details of that yet.
If that is the final price I still can’t see how that’s a better return than farming after your costs , not to mention being signed to it for 5 years with no exit or any say in what happens , the reward doesn’t seem to out way the risk in my opinion
 

Wombat

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
East yorks
There always seems to be these things a strange concept that farmers aren’t a professional business and cannot be paid appropriately. The vets get to charge their full whack for the health visit on Sfi, if you get fencing done on a scheme it’s not at a discount to the person doing it, yet the person covering all the risk of these and dealing with Defra when they mess it up gets maybe minimum wage.

I got charged £160 by the plumber for travelling time last week to pick up a £15 part and come and fit it so 2 visits. I have a friend involved in hs2 maintainence for tree surgeons and he says they cannot spend the money they make fast enough but when it comes to the likes of this it’s here is a few quid be quiet.

As an engineer who farms for me it’s pay sensible numbers of the answer will be no.
 

ajd132

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Suffolk
If that is the final price I still can’t see how that’s a better return than farming after your costs , not to mention being signed to it for 5 years with no exit or any say in what happens , the reward doesn’t seem to out way the risk in my opinion
That what it was supposed to be originally. the stuff on the higher level goes with growing crops its not one or the other (i think you had to take a percentage out of production though 8% i think).
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
As opposed to land owners sitting on million-pound assets inheritance tax-free?
You have inadvertently hit the nail on the head.

That 'privilege' is to make it possible for farmers to 'roll over' the value of a business for the next generation. SFI/ ELMS offers little or nothing for these.

There has been huge swathes of land purchased by the very wealthy, lifestylers and 'off-setters' who will benefit from both. The public and environment will not.
 

Formatted

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
SE
That 'privilege' is to make it possible for farmers to 'roll over' the value of a business for the next generation.
Why should you be able to do that? My family aren't from farming stock and own a townhouse, they'll have to pay tax on it when it's passed to me. Why do you not get to do that? And on top of that you want an annual subsidy to prop up your lifestyle.
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Why should you be able to do that? My family aren't from farming stock and own a townhouse, they'll have to pay tax on it when it's passed to me. Why do you not get to do that? And on top of that you want an annual subsidy to prop up your lifestyle.

Because farming is quite unique in its difficulty to split personal / business.
If your families 'town house' was a cafe or shop, there would be similar methods to mitigate inheritance tax.

I'm not a huge fan of an annual subsidy.
If government wish to subsidise farming to secure home supplies and keep food costs down for its citizens then that seems perfectly laudable.

For government to use the same amount of public money to pay charities and corporations to do what they wanted to anyway, while increasing the cost of food and providing no public good, is pretty disgraceful.
 

serf

Member
Location
warwickshire
Why should you be able to do that? My family aren't from farming stock and own a townhouse, they'll have to pay tax on it when it's passed to me. Why do you not get to do that? And on top of that you want an annual subsidy to prop up your lifestyle.
Do you think you would still have a socialist outlook if you were from 'farming stock' and be willing to hand over half of the family's wealth that had been grafted for over generations , just to be thrown in the black hole of government
 
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Grass And Grain

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Yorks
I can't comment for arable farms, that is why I was interested in the sums.

For a livestock farm, doing plenty of public good, it really isn't worth it.
The proposed grassland payments were particularly derisory iirc. To get a medium or higher amount of payment, I didn't think the payments compensated sufficiently for the reduced productivity.

Grassland SFI seemed even worse than the arable SFI (which isn't very good in the first place).

I'm currently undecided if I'll enter the introductory arable soils SFI. Can't decide if to go for it and get what we get, but of we get a payment reduction for not quite complying correctly - then hey ho. Or just don't bother, but concentrate my effort on something more worthy of my effort.

Sadly, I suspect some smaller farms will decide it isn't worth the bother/hassle, but larger farms will think it's worth the hassle because the payment rates can be multiplied by x,000 acres. Don't mean to take anything at all way from the successful hard work of someone who's grown to be a large farm, but the chap with 100 acres just might not bother with SFI payment rates x 100 acres.

Really, non of us should sign up. I'd say leave them with egg on their face. Let's face it, it's not going to coat us ALL THAT MUCH CASH to not send our forms in. Someone ought to really start a boycot SFI campaign.

I think HMG is going to use the SFI OM addition as part of its carbon sequestration and reduction commitments.

Edit. And the grassland payments really are pants.
 

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