SFI Pilot questions / thoughts

[Against_the_grain]

Income foregone is not enough.

You are a clever chap Clive, why should they expect to employ your management skills for free?
Who else delivering ELMS/SFI is working for nothing?
Can you call anyone at Defra or the RPA at home on the weekend for some advice?

And you are the only one in the chain that carries any responsibility. There is every chance that they can refuse payment or demand money back should your scheme fail to meet its aims.

You also need to factor in the loss of potential opportunities. The land will not be available for other uses for many years and there is considerable cost to returning them to productivity afterwards IF THEY ALLOW you.

As I've said, "Income foregone is not enough."

This 100%

 

[Walton2]

its still in pilot stage so we can still influence

DEFRA will be montoring this thread, I’m sure they maybe a little concerned at feedback so far and maybe thinking they need look more closely at numbers if they want any one to actually do this

Janet Hughes TFF q&a on the 11th - I will start a thread asking for questions but I have a feeling this q&a maybe a little more awkward than previous ones !

My previous question didn’t make the grade last time. I bet it’s becoming an even more relevant,and even more awkward one ,as time goes on !!!!

 

[delilah]

One of those members is an NFU representative. They probably have a very large interest compared to the rest of the people in that group and should carry a lot of weight. That is what the NFU is actually for isn't it?!

Attached an NFU ELMS consultation response. The extract below is specific to where we are at now, ie the pilots. This is where my concern lies. Always waiting to see what defra come up with, to then comment on it. We should be saying what we want it to look like, not waiting to comment.

Defra question 16: Do you agree with the proposed approach to the National Pilot? What are the key elements of ELM that you think we should test during the Pilot?
The NFU welcomes the principle of running a National Pilot. The NFU would like to see more details about the content. The lack of detail currently available does not give confidence that the Pilot will have agreements in place in late 2021. The NFU is happy to discuss the detail of the pilot to ensure it is effective leading to a successful introduction of ELMs in 2024. Before 2024 the NFU expects the pilot to be delivered using the same underpinning computer programmes, payment systems, monitoring processes and all the back-office support functions that will be use for the full delivery of ELMs. It is clear that the first phases of the National Pilot will not do this as decisions are still to be taken about the delivery body and supporting IT from 2024. Based on the experiences of the IT development leading up to the introduction of Countryside Stewardship this is very concerning, and timescales are getting extremely tight for full delivery in 2024

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Have to be a new ley, or new species stitched in, a la herbal leys.

But what if they don't take sufficiently?

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

That's my point, they are but they aren't. For example: a nice rectangular field with an almost completely continuous run of hedge, interspersed with hedgerow trees & unqualifying hedgerow trees
View attachment 976406

This manifests itself as 8 hedges mapped, with 2 unqualifying lengths (less than 20 metres). If hedgerow trees don't qualify as hedges (because the base of the leafy layer is more than 2 metres) then some lengths of hedgerow are too short to qualify. Is it a case of sending in an RLE1 claiming it is a continuous length of hedge including hedgerow trees? The helpline wasn't able to give me any guidance on this.

View attachment 976410

And this is the result of creating a SIMPLIFIED scheme?

Once again, it seems they have asked lawyers instead of country folk to define a "hedge".

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Why not pay and become a member, you would then know what they are proposing for their members?

I was a farming member until June. I've rejoined as a "lifestyle member" just to keep getting their info and have seen nothing on this from them. Have I missed something?

 

[Sid]

Gove announced ELMS, what, 3 years ago ? All of the representative bodies should have been right at it, saying what they wanted it to look like. Being proactive. Instead all we are getting is reactive. We don't like this, we don't like that. I have a degree of sympathy for Defra, it must be very difficult when all they get is whingeing.
Show me anyone's suggestions as to what the SFI should look like and I would happily summarize it on a single side of A4.

Have you worked for government with the spin you are coming out with?

Plenty have come out with a wish list, proposals and recommendations.

There are none so blind as those that can not see.

 

[Badshot]

Thanks, the helpline were vague about the process

I don't know if the webinar is available to watch as a recording.
It actually answered quite a lot of questions

 

[delilah]

It is perhaps useful to step back from the detail, and remind ourselves what ELMS is all about.
Public money for public goods.
What are the public goods that farmers deliver ? Because that is Defra's brief, to pay for those public goods.

 

[Sid]

I was a farming member until June. I've rejoined as a "lifestyle member" just to keep getting their info and have seen nothing on this from them. Have I missed something?

21 page document I was looking at this morning

 

[chaffcutter]

I’ve read everything I can find on the scheme and my gripe is that the interrelationships between different standards don’t make any sense to me. The biggest gain imo would be to put water protecting buffers including wild flower mix, which achieves several objectives in one go, but the payment for it is peanuts, in should be one of the highest rewards for its results.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Did you expect farmers to be represented? A genuine question. I have been involved in the delivery of government schemes in the past. Very few if any 'farmers' involved in providing advice, support and form filling. Only real farmer I can think of was Phil Jarvis of Game Conservancy and one of my colleagues who has a family farm near Lincoln. Rest were 'consultants'. Hey ho.

Martin Lines is very much a "real farmer" too.

 

[Salopian_Will]

We are in the pilot. The minimum area requirements for wildlife optionS are very off putting. The income forgone methodology seems to deal with net margin only and omits fixed costs.
I am frankly bored of advisors and the press saying that you can get to x% of bps stacking options. Yes that might be the case but fails to account for income foregone.

I like the hedgerow incentive to encourage trees.

the soils stuff is contradictory to the latest ea restrictions coming in on organic manures.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

I am frankly bored of advisors and the press saying that you can get to x% of bps stacking options. Yes that might be the case but fails to account for income foregone.

So much for "trusted advisers"

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

21 page document I was looking at this morning

What title please? I can't find it despite logging in and searching for "SFI" but I'm probably being thick....

 

[Sid]

What title please? I can't find it despite logging in and searching for "SFI" but I'm probably being thick....

Two documents the white paper and the briefing document.
Under agri environment schemes

 

[Manney]

Basic grassland dairy farm here with about 88ha claimable area not been in any agri environmental schemes before. I've opted for intermediate level improved grassland and intermediate level grassland soils whilst playing with the system. They fit my farming system so no major effort needed. Adds up to about £13k and I've yet to fanny around putting in hedges.

So correct me if I'm wrong but next year I will get my slightly reduced BPS money, £13k SFI and £5k for helping review the pilot scheme. Seems ok.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Basic grassland dairy farm here with about 88ha claimable area not been in any agri environmental schemes before. I've opted for intermediate level improved grassland and intermediate level grassland soils whilst playing with the system. They fit my farming system so no major effort needed. Adds up to about £13k and I've yet to fanny around putting in hedges.

So correct me if I'm wrong but next year I will get my slightly reduced BPS money, £13k SFI and £5k for helping review the pilot scheme. Seems ok.

OK while you are still getting BPS as well......

 

[Jackov Altraids]

My management skill etc is covered by income forgone if calculated correctly - ie at the moment my “skill” and assets grow 3-4t /ac of wheat im just as happy to use my skill and asset to grow the SAME value of environmental good


the payment equation is simple for land expected to come out of production

2-3t wheat market price - crop input costs + sfi input costs = income forgone


at the moment it’s miles away from that so SFI expects charity from applicants……….. not happening !

You are selling yourself, and the rest of us, very cheaply.

You may be including your time under sfi input costs but most people don't seem to be.

The amount of extra 'management' required on those areas if farmed as a whole is negligible.
If you put those areas into ELMS/SFI, there are considerable management requirements.
It depends which options you choose but for grazing, this is what is required;

Sustainable Farming Incentive guidance

What farmers need to know to get paid under the Sustainable Farming Incentive (SFI) and how to apply for this funding.

www.gov.uk

This is all simple and obvious to livestock farmers because we are PROFESSIONALS.

Maybe you should spend some time looking through the
Tenant Farming, Subsidies, BPS & Legal Issues
threads and see how simple it is dealing and managing agreements with Natural England.

Referring to your agreement every time you need to manage pasture to see what you can and can't do is time consuming and leads to poor decisions. Both cost.

 

[steveR]

But what if they don't take sufficiently?

You try again.... and again! As I have had to this year, after the very long cold and dry Spring weather. Bloody nightmare, but at least the excellent Severn Trent scheme, STEPS is realistic about things and we have a single Advisor and contact to allow the problem to be worked out dealt with.