Sheep EBV’s

[neilo]

A bit of both to be honest, they have to perform to slaughter weight yes anything that is not 40kg + end of june is sold fat ealry march born lambs, The high index tup grew like stink 35kg at 8 weeks and tunred into a horrid looking shearling, I have used him on lleyn x welsh ewes and he has done ok, other tups I use From my own breeding throw fuller looking lambs with better asses none the less it doesn’t matter to me in terms of selling my own fat lambs, but for selling shearlings I simply cant market that kind of tup as nobody wants them. I have produce what my customers want

As a shearling producer myself, I understand what you are saying. However, the BLUP system is only ever trying to evaluate performance to slaughter weight, which I would argue is the only thing of commercial significance in terminal sire breeds. The fact that almost all buyers will pick on what the ram looks like as a shearling, doesn't make it right, or even a sensible way to evaluate them.

That said, I won't use a dog of a sheep either, whatever it's figures might say. It's got to have both IMO, not one or the other.

I would always avoid a big, heavy mature ram though, however impressive he may look. If a ram is hitting 170-180+kg, even 200kg in the case of one at Builth last year, the progeny have not a chance in hell of reaching a level of maturity (which is all 'finish' is) at slaughter weights, without one hell of a good feeding regime.

 

[andybk]

I'd question if there is a need for a sheep to be 140kg.
Lambs only need to get to 40 odd kilos.

that maybe the problem, what are lambs like at killing weight ? big framed rams in my experience have a poorer proportion of killable lambs at the right weights without hard feed than medium framed ones (120kg)especially on sf x mule types that have the frame already , smaller ones hit maturity quicker and start laying down fats for finish .

 

[andybk]

I would always avoid a big, heavy mature ram though, however impressive he may look. If a ram is hitting 170-180+kg, even 200kg in the case of one at Builth last year, the progeny have not a chance in hell of reaching a level of maturity (which is all 'finish' is) at slaughter weights, without one hell of a good feeding regime.

over the years i had many rows with my father over the fact our rams werent big enough for buyers and why we stopped selling at builth , i used to say "your breeding what they need but not what they want " he just used to say they just need educating! . and we let some smaller better shaped ones go for a cheaper price to regular buyers as long as they followed lambs though and could see what they produced , and interestingly ever since they now pick the smaller ones , i even get some comments that they are getting too big in some cases .
As long as loin ,length , arse and growth rates are there , never worried since about selling out every year from farm gate .
Be different if i was selling at auction though

 

[gwi1890]

that maybe the problem, what are lambs like at killing weight ? big framed rams in my experience have a poorer proportion of killable lambs at the right weights without hard feed than medium framed ones (120kg)especially on sf x mule types that have the frame already , smaller ones hit maturity quicker and start laying down fats for finish .

Like I said above anything below 40kgs end of june is gone and all they have had is grass, he works with my ewes which are medium sized and produce 105- 120kg shearlings off forage alone so which is the same weight as what I was producing 4 years ago before I bought the tup, only difference is I was creep feeding and feeding pre sales back then

 

[Johngee]

Is anyone daft enough to buy on figures alone? I'd have thought that even in these modern and trendy times that people still lean towards what their eye tells them to, even if it is in combination with things like figures or health status.

I’ve only ever bought one ram (an Easycare) on figures alone. When he arrived my heart sank as he was such a miserable looking thing. Anyway we used him and he turned out to be one of the best rams we’ve used. The lambs were fast growing and killed out well and his daughters are still consistently the best in the flock. He never came to look good himself though and I won’t take that chance again!

 

[Ribble]

Not sure I've followed the conversation so just checking if someone can confirm

A smaller framed, early maturing ram will throw lambs that are fat and ready early, but his progeny sold as older shearings will be discriminated against, because buyers of shearlings want larger framed, later maturing animals?

 

[MRT]

Are you judging them on what they look like as mature rams, or how their lambs perform to slaughter weight (which is the only bit that performance recording attempts to quantify)?

I can understand why you might want a ram to look big and strong as an aged ram, but that really is an irrelevance to the commercial production of lamb. I have known of plenty of bloodlines that have been sh*ts of lambs at slaughter weight, and who wouldn't grade without a lot of hard feed, but who have made clonking good shearlings and sold in the thousands. I also know plenty of bloodlines that produce lambs that are good and ready at slaughter weight, off cheap forage only, but who never get above 120kg themselves. Which makes for the better commercial ram?

Judging adult rams is totally unconnected to what their lambs do ime, unless your primary aim is to produce more adult rams the same (which is unfortunately what the shearling trade is all about at ram sales of course). 'A real Shearling maker'

This has been my recent experience. Checking I wasn't fooling myself I brought some more common blood back in that would kick the behind of my lot in looks and let him cover a small number of ewes. Giving him to a smallholder friend for free and taking the loss. Really I should be pleased!

 

[neilo]

Not sure I've followed the conversation so just checking if someone can confirm

A smaller framed, early maturing ram will throw lambs that are fat and ready early, but his progeny sold as older shearings will be discriminated against, because buyers of shearlings want larger framed, later maturing animals?

'Finish' on a fat lamb is just a laying down of fat as the lamb achieves a degree of maturity. A rough rule of thumb was always reckoned to be to take the average of the sire & dam's mature weights and halve it, to give you the ideal finishing weight. If the genetics of an animal dictate that it is going to keep on growing until it reaches 150kg+ mature weight, that 'laying down of fat' isn't going to happen until it reaches a higher weight, without a higher plain of nutrition (usually concentrate feeding) to increase fat deposition. Unless you have very small ewes, there is absolutely no point in having huge mature weight rams, and even then you can run into problems with birthing big lambs.
There is a correlation between mature weight and growth rates, and between mature weight and birth weights, but there are plenty of genetics that 'bend the curve' by growing fast but not getting excessively big. Those genetics can only be identified if the ram breeders are measuring and recording growth weights, whether they do that using the Signet system, or their own. You absolutely cannot identify them by looking at a yearling ram at 18-20 months of age, the length of it's ears, the width of his forehead, the colour of his facial hair, etc.

Many Shearling ram buyers like to pick out the biggest, strongest shearlings, so those make more money at auction sales, so most breeders obviously try to breed them ever bigger and stronger to chase those higher prices.

 

[Ribble]

'Finish' on a fat lamb is just a laying down of fat as the lamb achieves a degree of maturity. A rough rule of thumb was always reckoned to be to take the average of the sire & dam's mature weights and halve it, to give you the ideal finishing weight. If the genetics of an animal dictate that it is going to keep on growing until it reaches 150kg+ mature weight, that 'laying down of fat' isn't going to happen until it reaches a higher weight, without a higher plain of nutrition (usually concentrate feeding) to increase fat deposition. Unless you have very small ewes, there is absolutely no point in having huge mature weight rams, and even then you can run into problems with birthing big lambs.
There is a correlation between mature weight and growth rates, and between mature weight and birth weights, but there are plenty of genetics that 'bend the curve' by growing fast but not getting excessively big. Those genetics can only be identified if the ram breeders are measuring and recording growth weights, whether they do that using the Signet system, or their own. You absolutely cannot identify them by looking at a yearling ram at 18-20 months of age, the length of it's ears, the width of his forehead, the colour of his facial hair, etc.

Many Shearling ram buyers like to pick out the biggest, strongest shearlings, so those make more money at auction sales, so most breeders obviously try to breed them ever bigger and stronger to chase those higher prices.

Thanks for being so thorough, I'll keep that post.

I have been reading about cattle recently and they have frame score tables from Missouri. The author said you take the bulls hip height at 12 months, and it will give you an expected mature weight. Is there any similar system for frame scoring/weighing sheep at a certain age, maybe a certain number of weeks that would be equivalent to a yearling bull?

 

[andybk]

'Finish' on a fat lamb is just a laying down of fat as the lamb achieves a degree of maturity. A rough rule of thumb was always reckoned to be to take the average of the sire & dam's mature weights and halve it, to give you the ideal finishing weight. If the genetics of an animal dictate that it is going to keep on growing until it reaches 150kg+ mature weight, that 'laying down of fat' isn't going to happen until it reaches a higher weight, without a higher plain of nutrition (usually concentrate feeding) to increase fat deposition. Unless you have very small ewes, there is absolutely no point in having huge mature weight rams, and even then you can run into problems with birthing big lambs.
There is a correlation between mature weight and growth rates, and between mature weight and birth weights, but there are plenty of genetics that 'bend the curve' by growing fast but not getting excessively big. Those genetics can only be identified if the ram breeders are measuring and recording growth weights, whether they do that using the Signet system, or their own. You absolutely cannot identify them by looking at a yearling ram at 18-20 months of age, the length of it's ears, the width of his forehead, the colour of his facial hair, etc.

Many Shearling ram buyers like to pick out the biggest, strongest shearlings, so those make more money at auction sales, so most breeders obviously try to breed them ever bigger and stronger to chase those higher prices.

spot on post ! and why its easier to finish ewe lambs because their growth slows at an earlier stage , we all need to get out of this size thing and concentrate on the quality of the animal ,and how well it converts normal pasture into meat and finish it really isnt hard , though convincing farmer ted of that , down the market is another matter ,

 

[neilo]

Thanks for being so thorough, I'll keep that post.

I have been reading about cattle recently and they have frame score tables from Missouri. The author said you take the bulls hip height at 12 months, and it will give you an expected mature weight. Is there any similar system for frame scoring/weighing sheep at a certain age, maybe a certain number of weeks that would be equivalent to a yearling bull?

I can't see that such a system could work in sheep (or be particularly accurate in cattle for that matter) as there are so many different breeds, and variations within breeds. It would be further complicated by the differences in rearing system. A sheep that was introduced to ad-lib creep as early as possible, then stayed on that system for the first 18 months would obviously reach mature size/weight at a far earlier age than one that was born on a bit of rough parkland and expected to grow to maturity slowly on a less nutrient dense diet.

A lot of the pumped up shearling rams at the sales will never be as big again, whereas a more naturally reared ram will keep growing until they are 3 year olds, in the same way that flock ewes do.

 

[sheepwise]

spot on post ! and why its easier to finish ewe lambs because their growth slows at an earlier stage , we all need to get out of this size thing and concentrate on the quality of the animal ,and how well it converts normal pasture into meat and finish it really isnt hard , though convincing farmer ted of that , down the market is another matter ,

Problem is different farms require different things. It always amazes me how you boys down south talk relentlessly about not being able to get an adequate finish on your lambs. In this area where admittedly we can grow grass, lambs going overfat has historically been more of an issue. I can remember back to the days of live grading for variable premium and regularly getting lambs sent home as too rich. We even used to shut them inside on a diet of fishmeal and hay to try to burn fat off to get them back to spec.I can never remember getting any rejected as too lean. So my breeding policy has always been towards muscle and tight skins with good hard fleshing. I certainly don't want massive mature weight tups but small dumpy kinds which get too fat at a light weight are no use to anyone. I try to run my sheep flock like my suckler cows with smaller to medium sizes females put to growthy, well shaped sires to produce what the market requires at least cost.

 

[neilo]

Problem is different farms require different things. It always amazes me how you boys down south talk relentlessly about not being able to get an adequate finish on your lambs. In this area where admittedly we can grow grass, lambs going overfat has historically been more of an issue. I can remember back to the days of live grading for variable premium and regularly getting lambs sent home as too rich. We even used to shut them inside on a diet of fishmeal and hay to try to burn fat off to get them back to spec.I can never remember getting any rejected as too lean. So my breeding policy has always been towards muscle and tight skins with good hard fleshing. I certainly don't want massive mature weight tups but small dumpy kinds which get too fat at a light weight are no use to anyone. I try to run my sheep flock like my suckler cows with smaller to medium sizes females put to growthy, well shaped sires to produce what the market requires at least cost.

I don't think anyone mentioned 'small dumpy kinds', just not excessively big mature weights. There is a difference.

 

[andybk]

Problem is different farms require different things. It always amazes me how you boys down south talk relentlessly about not being able to get an adequate finish on your lambs. In this area where admittedly we can grow grass, lambs going overfat has historically been more of an issue. I can remember back to the days of live grading for variable premium and regularly getting lambs sent home as too rich. We even used to shut them inside on a diet of fishmeal and hay to try to burn fat off to get them back to spec.I can never remember getting any rejected as too lean. So my breeding policy has always been towards muscle and tight skins with good hard fleshing. I certainly don't want massive mature weight tups but small dumpy kinds which get too fat at a light weight are no use to anyone. I try to run my sheep flock like my suckler cows with smaller to medium sizes females put to growthy, well shaped sires to produce what the market requires at least cost.

as you know the advantage of the charollais is that it doesnt get to fat , so as soon as it hits 34kg its ready and still is right upto 50kg +, a lot of sheep arnt kept on grass farms down here in summer (new leys) , usually its downland or old well used pasture , fescue types with some rye and clover , often a sideline to an arable business , .some might be lucky and run alongside dairy units , also the ewes tend to be mule or suff x mules so size is in the ewe you dont need anymore of that in the rams , some of the romney boys use southdowns and they are even smaller than the blocky chars , and i would agree with neil that nobody is talking small dumpy types but adult weight of 110 - 130 kg is plenty

 

[sheepwise]

as you know the advantage of the charollais is that it doesnt get to fat , so as soon as it hits 34kg its ready and still is right upto 50kg +, a lot of sheep arnt kept on grass farms down here in summer (new leys) , usually its downland or old well used pasture , fescue types with some rye and clover , often a sideline to an arable business , .some might be lucky and run alongside dairy units , also the ewes tend to be mule or suff x mules so size is in the ewe you dont need anymore of that in the rams , some of the romney boys use southdowns and they are even smaller than the blocky chars , and i would agree with neil that nobody is talking small dumpy types but adult weight of 110 - 130 kg is plenty

The grass fed shearlings we sell off farm won’t be 130kg. And in our situation Charollais can get too fat if we work with the wrong types but the same goes for texels.

 

[sheepwise]

as you know the advantage of the charollais is that it doesnt get to fat , so as soon as it hits 34kg its ready and still is right upto 50kg +, a lot of sheep arnt kept on grass farms down here in summer (new leys) , usually its downland or old well used pasture , fescue types with some rye and clover , often a sideline to an arable business , .some might be lucky and run alongside dairy units , also the ewes tend to be mule or suff x mules so size is in the ewe you dont need anymore of that in the rams , some of the romney boys use southdowns and they are even smaller than the blocky chars , and i would agree with neil that nobody is talking small dumpy types but adult weight of 110 - 130 kg is plenty

Won’t be many Suffolk cross ewes in this area. A lot of texel crosses but mainly mules and other crosses bred from smaller hill type ewes.

 

[NZDan]

This has probably been covered before, And argued in plenty of other threads, But here we go again anyway, Im a big fan of the theory behind it but in terms of looking at animal I can make sense of it in my own flock the Big tup is in the top 50% of the breed with poor figures in terms of muscularity ?, and the other tup kept soley on figures and in the top 1% of the breed unfortunately if I used the tup in the top 1% would set my flock back years, I have used him commercially as well and not really been impressed, sheep are on grass Only here and get no special treatment
The crap Tups figures are shown
View attachment 890721View attachment 890722View attachment 890723

With put ant details of how the respective lambs performed all the above photo tells me is that one ram was fed better than the other.

 

[clod hopper]

Not sure I've followed the conversation so just checking if someone can confirm

A smaller framed, early maturing ram will throw lambs that are fat and ready early, but his progeny sold as older shearings will be discriminated against, because buyers of shearlings want larger framed, later maturing animals?

When picking a ram your ewes and market are the deciding factor. Longer Rams for shorter ewes say Welsh mountain for late season/store lambs. Shorter Rams for longer ewes say mules for early lambs. Just examples no farm is the same. So what you're client wants might not be what you like to breed sadly

 

[Frank-the-Wool]

When picking a ram your ewes and market are the deciding factor. Longer Rams for shorter ewes say Welsh mountain for late season/store lambs. Shorter Rams for longer ewes say mules for early lambs. Just examples no farm is the same. So what you're client wants might not be what you like to breed sadly

Not sure I want a short ram for anything.
In my humble experience length = weight, regardless of what the mother is!

 

[clod hopper]

Not sure I want a short ram for anything.
In my humble experience length = weight, regardless of what the mother is!

Harder to finish is the problem longer sheep tend to be larger and keep growing, not always mind you get your frekes. Yes they do make bigger whaight.