Should He Pay the Dealer?

[Scribus]

I was talking to a plant hire owner a few months back who pointed out that computer diagnostics can cause as much hassle as they cure. One thing he was very certain of was that the fault codes tend to tell only half the story and the worth of a good mechanic is in being able to work out just what the fault is rather than simply rely on misleading feedback from the the machines CPU. He once suffered great frustration with a new excavator which had all sorts of bits and bobs changed in the fuel system until someone looked in the fuel tank and noticed an old rag had been dropped into it, the removal of which fixed the problems outright.

 

[Will 1594]

We had a dealer out to the Fendt, would run for 10 seconds then stop, just wanted to start banging new bits on here and there , "we've got to try something" he said....new diesel lift pump, new filters, I had just changed them as thought that was the problem...left and ordered a new filter top....parts were up to maybe £800 by now. I took the filter top off and found a lump of silicone in the non return valve that had come from a repair a few months ago on the diesel tank outlet. Canceled the new filter top and took off the new lift pump and sent it back. Very annoying

Mmmm reminds me of a similar thing with Jcb 310 would run fine until you worked it hard , kept coming up with low rail pressure , so they changed a valve. Same thing , then mechanic , now service manager I mentioned earlier , just said have you started at the beginning ??, he took stack pipe out of tank , ?. Plastic label stuck up it , work it hard not enough fuel could get past , pulled it out and run fine . You cannot always blame the younger lap top jockeys . Because they have not had to work on the old stuff and learnt from years of experience or maybe had 6 year apprentice ship , we are sadly now paying for the lack of knowledge

 

[bumkin]

we bought a cat th 62 years ago and it hat a fault it would stop at random, finnings were very good and sent a fitter out he put a new lift pump on we still had the same problem they sent another chap out with a filter head that did not cure it thy sent a chap out with an injector pump i said when its running is fine then it just stops is there a filter in the tank ?no then a chap of about fifty came out and we sat down and talked about the problem and decided to take the fuel tank off and floating about in there was a small piece of foam gasket that had been there from new when ever it past the fuel pipe it would get sucked over the end .

 

[Phil P]

we bought a cat th 62 years ago and it hat a fault it would stop at random, finnings were very good and sent a fitter out he put a new lift pump on we still had the same problem they sent another chap out with a filter head that did not cure it thy sent a chap out with an injector pump i said when its running is fine then it just stops is there a filter in the tank ?no then a chap of about fifty came out and we sat down and talked about the problem and decided to take the fuel tank off and floating about in there was a small piece of foam gasket that had been there from new when ever it past the fuel pipe it would get sucked over the end .

had a similar problem on a tele-handler, the hydraulics would randomly just go slow or off! Stop and start it and they would come back on again.
Turned out that the gauze filter on the end of the suction pipe had unscrewed its self and was rolling around in the bottom of the tank. Every now and then it would roll across the front of the pipe and get sucked against it and restrict the oil flow?

 

[bumkin]

had a similar problem on a tele-handler, the hydraulics would randomly just go slow or off! Stop and start it and they would come back on again.
Turned out that the gauze filter on the end of the suction pipe had unscrewed its self and was rolling around in the bottom of the tank. Every now and then it would roll across the front of the pipe and get sucked against it and restrict the oil flow?

as a foot note to the cat when we bought it it had only done a few hundred hours apparently no one wanted to drive it because of the fuel problem

 

[Dry Rot]

The fault with this tractor was a simple broken wire. I had electrical problems with my own tractor, admittedly not one of your fancy modern ones but a 20 year old, and was getting all sorts of weird symptoms. I struggled for days without success, then bit the bullet and called an auto electrician, not a tractor mechanic. He found one bulb with one of a twin filament broken, a tail light wrongly wired, and a broken wire in the wheel arch, all with a test light. £80 for two hours work. God knows what it would have cost me if I'd called the dealer but this thread is a lesson!

 

[Steevo]

He can’t not pay the invoice because it was his decision to get the dealer in. The fact they couldn’t find the issue due to incompetence doesn’t mean it should be free.

It was his decision to get the dealer in. Clearly the customer was under the impression that the dealer would be competent enough to be able to fix it.

If the dealer's trained mechanic had come out, found the fault, and fixed it in a timely manner as "should" have happened, everyone would be happy.

As it turned out the dealer's mechanic has spent over 4x the amount of time the OP (as a trained mechanic himself) thinks it should have taken. Further more, the dealer still hadn't found the fault and the tractor was still in pieces and out of action for several days.

I'm sure with hindsight the customer in question is wishing he had waited til Phil could drop in and fix it - as it turned out the dealer added no value at all, and actually did the opposite. If I was the dealer I would struggle justify to anyone that I had provided a service that deserved payment. I'd feel a fraud asking to be paid.

 

[Mc115reed]

It was his decision to get the dealer in. Clearly the customer was under the impression that the dealer would be competent enough to be able to fix it.

If the dealer's trained mechanic had come out, found the fault, and fixed it in a timely manner as "should" have happened, everyone would be happy.

As it turned out the dealer's mechanic has spent over 4x the amount of time the OP (as a trained mechanic himself) thinks it should have taken. Further more, the dealer still hadn't found the fault and the tractor was still in pieces and out of action for several days.

I'm sure with hindsight the customer in question is wishing he had waited til Phil could drop in and fix it - as it turned out the dealer added no value at all, and actually did the opposite. If I was the dealer I would struggle justify to anyone that I had provided a service that deserved payment. I'd feel a fraud asking to be paid.

Exactly!! Hell even if it had took him the 2 days and he had actually fixed the problem and put the tractor back together again atleast then they would deserve payment but since they didnt actually fix the problem just made it worse why can they expect payment???

 

[Robt]

In my opinion this is rather a poor show from the op. He once had to start on his engineering journey. The dealer is at fault but to put it on here is poor! If you know where Philip is based you will know the dealer and possibly the engineers involved. We struggle to recruit youngster in our industry as most get trained then bugger off to work for them sleeves. These types of posts really don’t help!

 

[jd6820]

On the subject of the 16 hours clocked up by the fitters, why didn't alarm bells ring with the farmer in OP's post and the workshop manager at the dealer when diagnosis and fault finding went past 2-3 hours?

I'm out of touch with dealer calculations on these things but 16 hours would surely exceed the normal allotted time for an engine or transmission rebuild?

Hmm, not sure what kind of rebuild 16hrs would get you? Transmission or engine related. You realise cleaning components thoroughly and check for wear alone could add up to that amount of time. Electrical faults can vary greatly on time to fix, especially given you can't usually 'see' the fault. Added to the often lack of understanding from a lot of tech's can leave you with potentially large bills.

 

[Chae1]

He'll have to pay it I'm afraid.

He should have been more patient and waited for you to call him back.

 

[Matthew Britton]

Came to an agreement, especially after return trip bear no fruit and ended up with cab in similar state to Phil’s early picture!

Not a John Deere dealer by any chance?

 

[betweenthelines]

He can’t not pay the invoice because it was his decision to get the dealer in. The fact they couldn’t find the issue due to incompetence doesn’t mean it should be free.

Surely, calling a dealer and saying "My tractor won't start, can you send someone to look at it?" it's implied that you want it restored to working order? Otherwise, why call them?

You go to hospital and say "A cow kicked me, can you have a look" it's implied that they treat you, not just say to you "Yeah that looks painful, bye"

 

[Cowabunga]

Surely, calling a dealer and saying "My tractor won't start, can you send someone to look at it?" it's implied that you want it restored to working order? Otherwise, why call them?

You go to hospital and say "A cow kicked me, can you have a look" it's implied that they treat you, not just say to you "Yeah that looks painful, bye"

You have to pay the vet even if the cow dies. However in the case of this tractor, its a bit of a cock-up and surely only maybe four hours could be justified as being invoiced. A compromise has to be found with labour at what, £60/hour? Four hours would at least cover the chap's wages.

 

[Wombat]

Has the customer actually had a bill from the dealer yet or is this 6 pages of if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle type ramblings?

 

[Highland Mule]

As there is less and less gear to fix and it becomes more complicated where do the young lads get the experience from?

From being trained by the manufacturers. The rates quoted here are similar to those for a degree qualified chartered engineer in an air conditioned, fully specified office block. Those guys have many years’ training to pay for, so why can’t the mechanic have the same?

You have to pay the vet even if the cow dies. However in the case of this tractor, its a bit of a cock-up and surely only maybe four hours could be justified as being invoiced. A compromise has to be found with labour at what, £60/hour? Four hours would at least cover the chap's wages.

I’d pay the vet, but I wouldn’t pay if the practice sent out the receptionist to do the operation.

 

[Phil P]

Has the customer actually had a bill from the dealer yet or is this 6 pages of if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle type ramblings?

I’m doubtful he’ll will have had the bill yet, however knowing most dealers I’m sure one will arrive shortly. I’ll probably give him a call in the morning see how he’s got on?
Before I go to pick some parts up from the dealer?

 

[betweenthelines]

You have to pay the vet even if the cow dies. However in the case of this tractor, its a bit of a cock-up and surely only maybe four hours could be justified as being invoiced. A compromise has to be found with labour at what, £60/hour? Four hours would at least cover the chap's wages.

I wouldn't pay the vet if he spent hours giving my cow a full medical then shook his head and said "F*ck knows what's wrong with her, I haven't got a clue"

But that's probably why they (like GP's) say "it's an infection, here's some antibiotics"

 

[YELROM]

You have to pay the vet even if the cow dies. However in the case of this tractor, its a bit of a cock-up and surely only maybe four hours could be justified as being invoiced. A compromise has to be found with labour at what, £60/hour? Four hours would at least cover the chap's wages.

Totally off topic but friend had a sucker cow calve recently and was off colour so called out vet, young vet came out couple of jabs 'be right in a couple of days'. No better in a couple of days so gets vet out again, another young vet puts had in the cow and says its not cleansed so pulls it out etc.
Still no better in a couple more days so gets vet out again, one of the partners comes out puts his had in the cow and says there is another calf in the cow but its to late and puts the cow down
Would you pay???

 

[jg123]

9

I wouldn't pay the vet if he spent hours giving my cow a full medical then shook his head and said "F*ck knows what's wrong with her, I haven't got a clue"

But that's probably why they (like GP's) say "it's an infection, here's some antibiotics"

Ye it's a lot harder to say try some fuel additive but the tractor might be dead in the morning compared to inject the cow and see in the morning