Should I be keeping my own rams?

[PhilipB]

Following on from the discussion about which ewe lambs to keep, it's got me thinking about traits from the paternal side.

We have about 300 ewes and lamb indoors.

The ewes are all home bred. They were kind of Romney/ hartline/ texel. Then about ten years ago we went in for lleyn rams, so there's a lot of that sloshing around in there. Plus a dash of Suffolk, here and there.

Normally spending about £400 on a ram, incidentally.

So basically a lot of genes from lots of sources have gone into the soup so far.

Are there people with a flock this size who save own rams with moderate or no precautions of close family mating?

Would avoiding close family mating make for impossible maths?

How 'close' is close?

(for the past three years I've been tagging ewe replacements at birth so am gradually getting more info on parentage)

 

[AftonShepherd]

@Nithsdale Farmer

 

[CollCrofter]

Personally I would always buy tups in to keep fresh genetics coming into the flock

 

[Hilly]

I’d like to know how .

 

[Nithsdale]

@Nithsdale Farmer

 

[Woolless]

If you're going to keep your own tups, the best way is to split the flock into families and rotate tups around them. Or there was thread on here somewhere fairly recently that described a system where the 20 best tup lambs were chucked in with the flock, minimising the possibility of inbreeding.

Personally, I think you would be better to buy the best high-index tups for your job that you can afford and use them to breed replacements.

 

[Nithsdale]

Following on from the discussion about which ewe lambs to keep, it's got me thinking about traits from the paternal side.

We have about 300 ewes and lamb indoors.

The ewes are all home bred. They were kind of Romney/ hartline/ texel. Then about ten years ago we went in for lleyn rams, so there's a lot of that sloshing around in there. Plus a dash of Suffolk, here and there.

Normally spending about £400 on a ram, incidentally.

So basically a lot of genes from lots of sources have gone into the soup so far.

Are there people with a flock this size who save own rams with moderate or no precautions of close family mating?

Would avoiding close family mating make for impossible maths?

How 'close' is close?

(for the past three years I've been tagging ewe replacements at birth so am gradually getting more info on parentage)

Right...

Firstly you need to know what you want these Homebred tups to do - breed ewe lambs from, or just fat lambs (so maternal or terminal). You need to decide which ewes or ewe type you want to breed tups from. Obviously, you also need to decide what tup/breed you want to use...

Will leave all that up to you.

I breed my own tups from a group of 250 ewes... those tups are then used on the same group of 250 ewes. Which are an entirely closed flock I breed my ewe lambs from.
I do, however, buy tups occasionally to inject fresh blood into the flock...

How close is close? Well how close do you want! My old homebred tup is 5yr old. He goes to the group his mum, aunts, granny, sisters, half sisters, daughters, grand daughters... are all in.
Been doing this since I started going pure with the Lleyns - so about 10yr. No problems from line breeding, thus far!


When I get a good tup (bought in or bred) I tend to use him to the fullest...

 

[andybk]

So basically a lot of genes from lots of sources have gone into the soup so far.

Are there people with a flock this size who save own rams ?

Would avoiding close family mating make for impossible maths?

How 'close' is close?

(for the past three years I've been tagging ewe replacements at birth so am gradually getting more info on parentage)

yes we have done for years bring in a new ram and use a son more widely as it cuts down the unknown bad genetics entering the flock , BUT i know the dam and sire are sound and correct inc their parents, with good growth traits , it will amplify the good genetics in your own flock making a good % more dominant , you have to breed in a lot of times with correct stock to have issues , any issues you might have needs culling no excuses inc the sire if it goes wrong .

 

[NZDan]

What do you want to acheive? Where do you want to get to? How big do you want your ewes? How heavy do you want your lambs? What weaning % do you want? Wool or no wool? Health traits?
How will you get there?
How much time/effort/money do you want to use?
Come up with a plan, WRITE IT DOWN!!!!
Do you want to performance record?
do you want a single breed or are you happy with a mixed flock. Some of NZs big studs make use of top outside rams regardless of breed.
Many of the worlds top ram suppliers started by just breeding their own tups.
In breeding is over rated as an issue, don't even waste thought on it. breed close cull hard cull hard cull hard.

 

[Tim W]

In breeding is over rated as an issue, don't even waste thought on it. breed close cull hard cull hard cull hard.

Just look at our royal family, they're fine & we haven't even started the cull

 

[andybk]

Just look at our royal family, they're fine & we haven't even started the cull

dont know its starting to unravel the last few years

 

[NZDan]

Just look at our royal family, they're fine & we haven't even started the cull

That is a great example, a classic case of breeding close but failing to cull hard.
A breed like the Beefmaster cattle breed is a great example of what can be achieved by breeding close and culling hard. I think they're 80 odd years of being a closed herd, also plenty of Angus herds around the world who have inbreeding coefficients over .25 that are just quietly getting on with producing quality predictable sires. It seems to me the only folk who a squawking about the dangers of inbreeding are those that are covering their weaknesses by constantly looking for "new blood". If a herd or flock is in constant need of "new blood" to cover faults why not just breed close and cull hard and get rid of the faults.

 

[andybk]

That is a great example, a classic case of breeding close but failing to cull hard.
A breed like the Beefmaster cattle breed is a great example of what can be achieved by breeding close and culling hard. I think they're 80 odd years of being a closed herd, also plenty of Angus herds around the world who have inbreeding coefficients over .25 that are just quietly getting on with producing quality predictable sires. It seems to me the only folk who a squawking about the dangers of inbreeding are those that are covering their weaknesses by constantly looking for "new blood". If a herd or flock is in constant need of "new blood" to cover faults why not just breed close and cull hard and get rid of the faults.

suppose they used to get wiped out on either the battle field or over ate and had health issues ,

rest of your post totally agree , if it was good enough for bakewell and ellman ......

 

[Ysgythan]

For years we used past it stock tups and triplet born pet lambs from the pures as our stock tups for the commercials. As we also kept ewe lambs they could have got quite close. We chucked them all in together and didn’t seem to have any more freaks than before. Can’t have been too bad as we had 3rd with a carcass in the Royal Welsh in 1992, the only time we entered, with a lamb purely off grass.

 

[NZDan]

Just look at our royal family, they're fine & we haven't even started the cull

Probably my most closely bred ram lamb. To he fair I'm chasing certain traits really hard. 12520, 500, 999 and 526 all are top 1% for both lamb survival and meat and they carry 1 or 2 copies of GDF9 and GDF8 and all have short tails. I'd like to say I bought wisely when I bought 12520 and 999 (who are also related) but it was mostly luck.

 

[Tim W]

I would agree that inbreeding is worried about too much but it's good to remember that outbreeding is a good tool to have in the box

We ran 250 ewes in a closed flock for 15 years (breeding from ewe lambs and ram lambs every year ) with a 5 family system
We made good progress but when we extended the genepool to 800 ewes (new genetics/same breed) we moved forward much faster for the next few years

Different tools for different times/jobs

 

[NZDan]

I would agree that inbreeding is worried about too much but it's good to remember that outbreeding is a good tool to have in the box

We ran 250 ewes in a closed flock for 15 years (breeding from ewe lambs and ram lambs every year ) with a 5 family system
We made good progress but when we extended the genepool to 800 ewes (new genetics/same breed) we moved forward much faster for the next few years

Different tools for different times/jobs

Flock size an impact? More rams to choose from? 8 rams over 800 ewes vs 3 rams over 250 ewes?

 

[Tim W]

Flock size an impact? More rams to choose from? 8 rams over 800 ewes vs 3 rams over 250 ewes?

Wider choice of genetics for sure
Also interesting the rate of progress accelerated for a few years and then dropped off again

When you mix really diverse genetics the effects are dramatic ---try BBB X Lleyn/Wilts (45kg x 60 kg = 80kg)

 

[NZDan]

Wider choice of genetics for sure
Also interesting the rate of progress accelerated for a few years and then dropped off again

When you mix really diverse genetics the effects are dramatic ---try BBB X Lleyn/Wilts (45kg x 60 kg = 80kg)

My thoughts are that when you add a whole lot of, effectively unselected genetics in you make rapid change as you exclude a high % of poor genetics, then things become more homogeneous the selection differential becomes less.

 

[Global ovine]

Following on from the discussion about which ewe lambs to keep, it's got me thinking about traits from the paternal side.

We have about 300 ewes and lamb indoors.

The ewes are all home bred. They were kind of Romney/ hartline/ texel. Then about ten years ago we went in for lleyn rams, so there's a lot of that sloshing around in there. Plus a dash of Suffolk, here and there.

Normally spending about £400 on a ram, incidentally.

So basically a lot of genes from lots of sources have gone into the soup so far.

Are there people with a flock this size who save own rams with moderate or no precautions of close family mating?

Would avoiding close family mating make for impossible maths?

How 'close' is close?

(for the past three years I've been tagging ewe replacements at birth so am gradually getting more info on parentage)

My answers (and questions) to your queries above:

• The Paternal side; are you breeding for a maternal line (eg. efficient ewes), or a terminal line (eg. high value carcasses), or a dual purpose line?
• 300 ewes indoors; this is not a large flock to manage the breeding direction/goals, never had as many tools as available now.
• Home bred mix of breeds over the last couple of decades; the genetic base of this flock will be very diverse. Does uniformity or type feature in your priorities, or is it purely just performance?
• Normal spend of 400 quid/ram; is this your limited budget, or do you get lucky finding rams with the desired traits at this base price? A higher priced ram which meets the breeding goals may prove much cheaper per lamb sired.
• Are there people breeding own rams; You bet there are. Some do it to follow type fashions, others to control their individual breeding goals, while others do it for no other reason than pure meanness without any idea of where they are heading.
• How to avoid inbreeding; as posts above have suggested, there is an over reaction to this. However inbreeding does affect the low heritability traits (those with the most economic value) the most, survival, lambing % and health traits. If keeping home bred rams (as most breeders do), avoid over use of one line, irrespective of its advantages. It is a common technique in plant and animal breeding to cross two highly inbred lines to get the Super Strain, however they do not pass all these advantages to their progeny.
• Your history of parentage recording; any information is valuable to help with above points.

If you have not really nailed your breeding goals, then any further questions are rather superfluous. Breeding a functional and productive flock takes time and persistence using the tools of measured performance records, culling, generation interval and selection differential.
If that sounds daunting, just find a breeder(s) whose breeding goals match yours and go for the ride. Price of a ram that ticks your boxes is largely irrelevant. But first sort your boxes that need ticking before breeding your own or buying in.