Should we farm without N?

The Ruminant

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Hertfordshire
Now that is hellish interesting, top signposting, thank you. I feel a Potassium (Sulphate of Potash not MOP) strip trial is needed in my Red Clover Ley & Pea/Barley mix.

FYM in soil was said to be higher in Amino Sugar N, wonder if compost replaced FYM you would get higher or lower Amino Sugar N?
I’m reading “Mycorrhyzal Planet” and the author talks about Ramial wood which he says is the relatively new wood that grows each year. I can’t remember exactly why, but he was a firm believer that this stuff - ramial wood - was a wonder product as far as feeding the soil biome and mycorrhizae in particular. I wonder if this is because it is full of amino sugars. He talked about adding it to the mix when making compost too (I’ve just started my first mix :))

F87F7654-B3AF-4DE9-B7EB-5817E9EB005B.jpeg
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
the problem with nitrogen, is it produces a good return, on your 'investment'. What we need to realize, is why.
During, and after, ww2, food production was desperately needed, and farming became more intensive, and mechanized, which was understandable, and necessary. But, previously, there was a rotation, designed to keep the soil fertility up, and horses didn't damage the soil structure like modern machinery ! The result, is, we have downgraded our soils since then, unknowingly, and its only recently come, to the fore. The question is, how can we reverse the damage done to soil structure, which, in turn, will/should, reduce N use. The main tools in the armoury, are, livestock, legumes and rotation, and perhaps we need to relearn the basics of yesterday ! But, the crux, is soil structure, and that benefits us in many ways, it will absorb more carbon, it will retain more moisture, and should be increasingly fertile.
 

Rob Garrett

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Derbyshire UK
What was the crop before and what will you do after?
Like @Bury the Trash says, it's more about the whole rotation;
1. Out of W Barley (straw removed); light FYM, light disc (thinking of a no disc trial this year).
2. Broadcast stubble turnips (+ white clover trial this year), roll, graze with lambs, leave 10 to 15% of bulb to re-grow (living root in soil + soil cover + slow release nutrient when ploughed in)
3. Blather with FYM & plough in spring, combi drill Spring Oat, (broadcast white clover & linseed trial this year), roll, one spray seaweed/molasses (don't know why!). Combine leaving high stubble (6" to 8", keeps green from clover out the combine, gives some soil armour over winter + something for the worms to play with.
4. Graze clover with sheep, sometimes dump sheep on with ring feeders if stuck for space/keep. Clover stays green over winter so living root in soil.
5. Would love to DD spring barley/pea into the grazed clover but cannot afford fancy drill and contractors just offend me with what they charge! Also slugs & weed challenge??? So........... blather with FYM, plough, 197kg MOP product/ha, combi drill barley/pea. Spray 1 Pendimethalin pre. em. (£19/ha), Spray 2 seaweed/molasses
6. Tried broadcasting/roll mustard after combining pea/barley last year but not enough time/warmth to grow up here before going into W Barley, which would DD well into the pea/barley stubble, but as above!
7. So ......... blather with FYM, plough, combi drill W. Barley. I try to make this my weed clean up crop, so pre. em. + post em herbicide and T0, T1 & T2 fungicide (spring barley + winter barley back to back is bit of a disease bridge me thinks).

We are on light sandy/clay loam over shallow gritstone rock, just shy of 1,000', fairly hungry soil (easy leaching) but boys stuff to work. Getting a good supply of FYM now so planning to move more into compost, would love to reduce the tillage as I think the Mycorrhizal fungi thing makes sense (+ reduced cost of establishment), but it's got to balance with everything else; machinery cost, weed control etc.

Hope the above is of interest, apologies for going on a bit, it's all work in progress!
 

Rob Garrett

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Derbyshire UK
the problem with nitrogen, is it produces a good return, on your 'investment'. What we need to realize, is why.
During, and after, ww2, food production was desperately needed, and farming became more intensive, and mechanized, which was understandable, and necessary. But, previously, there was a rotation, designed to keep the soil fertility up, and horses didn't damage the soil structure like modern machinery ! The result, is, we have downgraded our soils since then, unknowingly, and its only recently come, to the fore. The question is, how can we reverse the damage done to soil structure, which, in turn, will/should, reduce N use. The main tools in the armoury, are, livestock, legumes and rotation, and perhaps we need to relearn the basics of yesterday ! But, the crux, is soil structure, and that benefits us in many ways, it will absorb more carbon, it will retain more moisture, and should be increasingly fertile.
And doing that within the constraints of the modern "short term" agricultural industry, as @M-J-G says ok if you haven't got silly rent/mortgage to pay, or higher labour cost etc. etc.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
perhaps i should have added/or not, my views on organic farming, which doesn't use N, in bags, We have 2 organic neighbors, both appear successful, but they are forever ploughing the ground, substituting sprays, fert for diesel. But, much more important, they are, by very regular ploughing, destroying soil structure, and microbial goodies, in the soil, and i was of the impression, organic farming, was 'good' for the soil ! Having said that, there are many practices of organic farming, that could be advantageous to 'normal' farmers.
 

Rob Garrett

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Derbyshire UK
I’m reading “Mycorrhyzal Planet” and the author talks about Ramial wood which he says is the relatively new wood that grows each year. I can’t remember exactly why, but he was a firm believer that this stuff - ramial wood - was a wonder product as far as feeding the soil biome and mycorrhizae in particular. I wonder if this is because it is full of amino sugars. He talked about adding it to the mix when making compost too (I’ve just started my first mix :))

View attachment 895195
That looks good stuff, getting a heat up too, what's in it? tree surgery residue, FYM? How many turns has it had?

The Ramial wood sounds interesting, that Nicol Masters mentions white wood chips with lower tannins are good, Newman Turner used anything he could get his hands on; old sacks, hedge clippings etc
 

Humble Village Farmer

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Essex
Like @Bury the Trash says, it's more about the whole rotation;
1. Out of W Barley (straw removed); light FYM, light disc (thinking of a no disc trial this year).
2. Broadcast stubble turnips (+ white clover trial this year), roll, graze with lambs, leave 10 to 15% of bulb to re-grow (living root in soil + soil cover + slow release nutrient when ploughed in)
3. Blather with FYM & plough in spring, combi drill Spring Oat, (broadcast white clover & linseed trial this year), roll, one spray seaweed/molasses (don't know why!). Combine leaving high stubble (6" to 8", keeps green from clover out the combine, gives some soil armour over winter + something for the worms to play with.
4. Graze clover with sheep, sometimes dump sheep on with ring feeders if stuck for space/keep. Clover stays green over winter so living root in soil.
5. Would love to DD spring barley/pea into the grazed clover but cannot afford fancy drill and contractors just offend me with what they charge! Also slugs & weed challenge??? So........... blather with FYM, plough, 197kg MOP product/ha, combi drill barley/pea. Spray 1 Pendimethalin pre. em. (£19/ha), Spray 2 seaweed/molasses
6. Tried broadcasting/roll mustard after combining pea/barley last year but not enough time/warmth to grow up here before going into W Barley, which would DD well into the pea/barley stubble, but as above!
7. So ......... blather with FYM, plough, combi drill W. Barley. I try to make this my weed clean up crop, so pre. em. + post em herbicide and T0, T1 & T2 fungicide (spring barley + winter barley back to back is bit of a disease bridge me thinks).

We are on light sandy/clay loam over shallow gritstone rock, just shy of 1,000', fairly hungry soil (easy leaching) but boys stuff to work. Getting a good supply of FYM now so planning to move more into compost, would love to reduce the tillage as I think the Mycorrhizal fungi thing makes sense (+ reduced cost of establishment), but it's got to balance with everything else; machinery cost, weed control etc.

Hope the above is of interest, apologies for going on a bit, it's all work in progress!
Thanks for giving so much detail
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
the problem with nitrogen, is it produces a good return, on your 'investment'. What we need to realize, is why.
During, and after, ww2, food production was desperately needed, and farming became more intensive, and mechanized, which was understandable, and necessary. But, previously, there was a rotation, designed to keep the soil fertility up, and horses didn't damage the soil structure like modern machinery ! The result, is, we have downgraded our soils since then, unknowingly, and its only recently come, to the fore. The question is, how can we reverse the damage done to soil structure, which, in turn, will/should, reduce N use. The main tools in the armoury, are, livestock, legumes and rotation, and perhaps we need to relearn the basics of yesterday ! But, the crux, is soil structure, and that benefits us in many ways, it will absorb more carbon, it will retain more moisture, and should be increasingly fertile.
It's also now well documented how the acid salt nature of nitrogen fertilisers damages soil biology in itself and directly leads to soil acidification.

A great point is made in the podcast that all of the yield trials (often sponsored by the fertiliser industry) compare using fertiliser to using no inputs rather than comparing using fertiliser to operating a holistic rotation with FYM and cover crops. They justify that by saying they need to "control for all other factors", a classic case of reductionist scientific method applied to a complex biological system. It's no wonder they "proved" the large response to fertiliser inputs.

Remember, the promotion of nitrogen fertiliser after ww2 was not an altruistic act to feed the growing population as it was claimed: it was the ammonia industry desperately looking for a new market after massive munition sales had stopped. If we want to "feed the world" then smallholders around the world produce MUCH more food per acre than broadacre farms ever do.
 

martian

DD Moderator
BASE UK Member
Location
N Herts
It's also now well documented how the acid salt nature of nitrogen fertilisers damages soil biology in itself and directly leads to soil acidification.

A great point is made in the podcast that all of the yield trials (often sponsored by the fertiliser industry) compare using fertiliser to using no inputs rather than comparing using fertiliser to operating a holistic rotation with FYM and cover crops. They justify that by saying they need to "control for all other factors", a classic case of reductionist scientific method applied to a complex biological system. It's no wonder they "proved" the large response to fertiliser inputs.

Remember, the promotion of nitrogen fertiliser after ww2 was not an altruistic act to feed the growing population as it was claimed: it was the ammonia industry desperately looking for a new market after massive munition sales had stopped. If we want to "feed the world" then smallholders around the world produce MUCH more food per acre than broadacre farms ever do.
N fertilisers not only lead to soil acidification, they effectively burn humus (as described in the podcast) and they burn ridiculous amounts of gas in the Haber-Bosch process making the horrible stuff. So, to answer the title of this thread, Yes, we should farm without (artificial) N.

Getting off this hamster wheel can be a bit cold turkey, as others have said. We found it much easier on the grassland than arable. Certainly don't miss it on permanent pastures, where we do our fertiliser spreader test on an old meadow, we'll get a flush of lovely green grass, but the cattle don't seem overly impressed, probably because it's just green water standing up. We used to think we had to give the meadows a bag to get them going in the spring, but it turns out a bit of grazing management does it better and cheaper...
 

Samcowman

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cornwall
We used loads of FYM. But that's still using N isn't it ?
If you use neither, I just can't see it's sustainable. It's all well and good ploughing up old grassland and getting 2 years good yields, but what then ?
This is saying artificial N. Fym is natural N as you are just putting back in the soil something which has just come from it.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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