Should we farm without N?

Rob Garrett

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Derbyshire UK
I think one of the problems with science is that scientists are human. If they’ve spent their life trying to prove that x action results in y outcome, they become entrenched in that position and refuse to consider they may have been wrong all along. So when someone comes along and says x action results in a+z they dig in and refute the other’s findings. It’s happened time and time again, through history.

I also part-believe the old saying that an expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less. Again, there is evidence that scientists can become so focused on their own extremely narrow field of study that they’re unable to step back and look at the big picture. The latter is often called “common sense” or “gut feel”.

My “gut feel” as a layman is that extra N will result in the burning up of OM. Why wouldn’t it? The soil is full of creatures who need a particular C:N ratio. There’s lots of C kicking round but the limiting factor is N. If we suddenly supply a vast excess of N, these soil-dwellers are going to feast, and multiply like mad, and feast again, much as I do when offered an eat-all-you-can banquet! (feasting, that is, not multiplying...!!)

I agree a round table discussion would be fascinating (Groundswell idea, @martian?) though it may end in fisticuffs :oops:
An even more interesting round table discussion would be "scientist's in agriculture, what's the point?"

I have been trying to list all the scientific findings/outcomes that have had an impact on our farm over the last 10 years:
1. Banning of Neo nix
2. Orange sheep wormer

That's all I can think of for 10 years worth of spend on Ag science, poor return on investment.
 

The Ruminant

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Hertfordshire
An even more interesting round table discussion would be "scientist's in agriculture, what's the point?"

I have been trying to list all the scientific findings/outcomes that have had an impact on our farm over the last 10 years:
1. Banning of Neo nix
2. Orange sheep wormer

That's all I can think of for 10 years worth of spend on Ag science, poor return on investment.
You’re obviously not embracing science fully enough, or you too could have had flatlining arable yields and resistant worms in your livestock.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
An even more interesting round table discussion would be "scientist's in agriculture, what's the point?"

I have been trying to list all the scientific findings/outcomes that have had an impact on our farm over the last 10 years:
1. Banning of Neo nix
2. Orange sheep wormer

That's all I can think of for 10 years worth of spend on Ag science, poor return on investment.
dont know about science exactly,..well heck yes science ...what else is it ..... New Zealand has been the place for livestock 'advancements' for a long time...
but then their industry is more valuable to them of course.:rolleyes:
 

martian

DD Moderator
BASE UK Member
Location
N Herts
I agree a round table discussion would be fascinating (Groundswell idea, @martian?) though it may end in fisticuffs :oops:
I'm thinking that all this dialogue is so BCE, Socrates and Plato stuff...we need to get into the Trumpian world, I thought we might have an Arena at Groundswell next year and get the scientists to fight each other in front of a crowd of baying farmers...that's the modern way of sorting out what's right and wrong
 
Agreed 100%. There are very few scientific disciplines that do not operate in "silos". Ecology and environmental science are perhaps the exception. All the rest adopt a totally reductionist approach to their study.
Agreed, we have become too hung up on overarching trial results whereas in the 70's and 80's we were much more open to giving things a try.
The garlic mix I sell for leatherjackets has under another name been in CRD for years. Probably never get out before it bankrupts the maker or they give up. Have anecdotal evidence that Bthru has a beneficial effect on Flea Beetle.
Good yields in Lincs where they arrived had a nibble and departed.
As they were treated pre-em we assume? it must be the soil effect that deters slugs also means it deters the adult FB and then either leave, don't lay eggs or it nails the nematodes after they hatch.
We won't be doing extensive/expensive trials just rely on client feedback.
 

Rob Garrett

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Derbyshire UK
Agreed, we have become too hung up on overarching trial results whereas in the 70's and 80's we were much more open to giving things a try.
The garlic mix I sell for leatherjackets has under another name been in CRD for years. Probably never get out before it bankrupts the maker or they give up. Have anecdotal evidence that Bthru has a beneficial effect on Flea Beetle.
Good yields in Lincs where they arrived had a nibble and departed.
As they were treated pre-em we assume? it must be the soil effect that deters slugs also means it deters the adult FB and then either leave, don't lay eggs or it nails the nematodes after they hatch.
We won't be doing extensive/expensive trials just rely on client feedback.
Proper science this. Have a plan, try something different, have a control to compare, stand back and SEE what happens!

Farmers are better at science than scientist, how can a trial plot or lab experiment replicate an "on farm" trial with your own unique soil, plants, stock, environment & human influence?

Look out scientists! The farmers need you to up your game (more practical results), if you don't then it's the mud pit fight ring @ Groundswell
 

Rob Garrett

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Derbyshire UK
dont know about science exactly,..well heck yes science ...what else is it ..... New Zealand has been the place for livestock 'advancements' for a long time...
but then their industry is more valuable to them of course.:rolleyes:
You've got it; "advancement". Somehow sounds different to "science", and who has driven "advancement" in NZ sheep genetics? Farmer's.

This is making me sound a bit anti scientist, I'm not, just think they need a kick up the backside!
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
I think one of the problems with science is that scientists are human. If they’ve spent their life trying to prove that x action results in y outcome, they become entrenched in that position and refuse to consider they may have been wrong all along. So when someone comes along and says x action results in a+z they dig in and refute the other’s findings. It’s happened time and time again, through history.

I also part-believe the old saying that an expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less. Again, there is evidence that scientists can become so focused on their own extremely narrow field of study that they’re unable to step back and look at the big picture. The latter is often called “common sense” or “gut feel”.

My “gut feel” as a layman is that extra N will result in the burning up of OM. Why wouldn’t it? The soil is full of creatures who need a particular C:N ratio. There’s lots of C kicking round but the limiting factor is N. If we suddenly supply a vast excess of N, these soil-dwellers are going to feast, and multiply like mad, and feast again, much as I do when offered an eat-all-you-can banquet! (feasting, that is, not multiplying...!!)

I agree a round table discussion would be fascinating (Groundswell idea, @martian?) though it may end in fisticuffs :oops:

Max Planck said (para phrased) “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”
 

Rob Garrett

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Derbyshire UK
We've never applied fertilizer since end of the 80's. Its just not cost effective. If you look at the potential quantities of N that can be fixed by vetch (if its terminated and left before coming to seed) for example (in a perfect trial) then compare that to normal spread rates?
Guessing your organic cert.? How do you work vetch into your crop rotation and how do you terminate it and establish next crop? If you don't mind me asking?
 

PuG

Member
Yes, Soil Association in the UK since 1989 and Ecocert here in France - Dad back in the 80's realized the cost of spreading fertilizer wasn't economical even with the increased yields so he went that way before registering. All that lovely nice lush thick green grass, how many of the cattle do you find if they have a choice, necks through the fence grazing the tasty original herbal mixes?

In the UK we under sowed our arable yearly with clover. Here we've started establishing vetch, pea's, barely, turnips in autumn and then flail mow May before the Sorghum goes in. According to the figures if its terminated and left your looking 100 - 250kg N per Ha (lifted from cotswold) and baled its still leaving around 60 to 70kg N. Plenty of different sources if you search on google. We're trying to move over to no-till at the moment, either plant autumn, terminate May for planting a cashcrop, or hole crop and put in Sorgho multi cut as soil conditioner to mulch down during the year.

 

Rob Garrett

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Derbyshire UK
I use hen muck this year it’s better than bought fert for sure !
Cant get hold of the stuff around here, Moy Park factory just down the road and more chicken sheds than you can shake a stick at, was told it all goes to power station for burning. That Fibrophos (burnt chicken poo) is supposed to be good stuff, but just a little expensive, so I jingle a bit of MOP on red clover after mowing (200kg/ha product), will change to Polysulphate next year if the price is right! https://www.originfertilisers.co.uk/products/polysulphate/
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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    Votes: 79 42.0%
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    Votes: 30 16.0%
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    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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