Silvopasture

[Beekissed]

Browsing shrubs is so undervalued/underappreciated by many UK livestock producers. The stock love it and it has huge nutritional benefits.

It is here too. They want to eradicate all that browse and use herbicides on their land to keep them gone~which only works sometimes~rather than work with them and use hair sheep or meat goats to keep them in control. Most farmers here want the easiest and most heavy hitting approach they can use on these invasive species of shrubs. If one mentions using them for their feed value they get pretty irate that anyone would do that and thinks everyone should be working actively to kill them in any way possible.

Two of our most invasive species here in my state have a higher protein value than any legume we could ever plant, plus the benefit of micro-tannins, so it's a little short sighted to not utilize them if given the chance to do so.

 

[Blaithin]

I’d rather eradicate buckbrush than put up with goats.

Can’t make everyone have the same priorities.

 

[Beekissed]

I’d rather eradicate buckbrush than put up with goats.

Can’t make everyone have the same priorities.

I'd rather do anything in this world than put up with goats. Like maybe have a root canal each day of the week.

I use Katahdin hair sheep, which love brush just as much as goats, but are the easiest care livestock I've ever raised. In my area hair sheep are not well known, so people automatically assume one has to have goats to eat brush and people don't want to have to deal with goats. Who in their right minds would? But hair sheep? They can utilize both browse and graze well, get fat and stay fat on just those two inputs, stay in fencing, are less parasite prone and are a great accompaniment for cattle.

 

[Blaithin]

Sheep are as low on my list of livestock to get as goats.

 

[Beekissed]

It's always hard to contemplate starting something new and different. But, it's even harder to listen to farmers in this area complain about how farming doesn't pay and how you can't make a living on farming, all the while spending big money to eradicate plant life that can be used to make money and also poisoning the soils on their farms so they can make even LESS money. Still listening to the USDA tell them how to get rid of the invasive plant species that the USDA encouraged them to plant in the first place. Doesn't make any kind of sense to me.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Visually yes. Ecologically I'm not sure if its as good as surrounded by its friends

Reading the book Wilding by Isabella Tree, I think she said Oaks are a tree of the more open pasture, not surrounded by other trees (she talks about how they regenerate from acorns stored by Jays I think in the roots of thorn trees in open pasture)

 

[Treemover]

This isn't a plug for my own business, as not many on here are from Ireland. But many of my clients are people that want semi mature trees for various reasons, screening, settings etc. The difficulty is that younger trees are hard to establish due to damage by man, machine or animal or indeed golf balls. The first option is always to plant the tree in the right location, but many cannot predict the future. A tree planted 15 years ago, now is in the way, or there is another area that could really do with it.

This is why I would recommend a tree spade, if the numbers are there, then it can be way cheaper than buying in from a nursery. For instance, one client of mine, was going to spend €150k on trees but instead hired me for €12000. After the client said the trees had a more natural look, rather than a forced planting. Not saying its the right thing in every case, but there are many cases where it makes sense.

But I would always encourage people to plant, even a few trees every year, you can always thin them out, but if you have the stock, then you wont have to buy them.

 

[martian]

Yesterday, I let a mob into a plantation we planted thirty odd years ago. It was hot and I thought they might enjoy the shade.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Yesterday, I let a mob into a plantation we planted thirty odd years ago. It was hot and I thought they might enjoy the shade. View attachment 900086

Well, seeing as the never arrived...

 

[PhilipB]

I've been mulling over this, whilst looking at some lovely mature single oaks dotted about our pastures. I've just reread a couple of chapters of Isabella Tree's Wilding (which I thoroughly recommend to anyone who hasn't read it yet) and she trashes the conventional wisdom that closed canopy forest is the natural state of the UK, or indeed most of Northern Europe. There were herds of wandering herbivores which restricted tree cover and led to a wood pasture landscape, which is much more biodiverse and 'productive' than pure woodland...which is where the silvo-pasture idea comes back in. She also points out that oaks won't naturally regrow in a closed woodland, they need the space and light to thrive, which is why they've teamed up with jays, who drop their acorns about all over the countryside. We've got little oaks popping up all over the place, so I'll be guarding some of these to keep the cattle off, in about three hundred years time there should be some lovely spreading oaks about the place. Can't wait...

To take up isabella tree and the whole silvopasture thing -

I'm not a believer. I took on some grazing that had a lovely park like bit.

This, according to her is the landscape herbivores love...

Sheep won't go near it, they ignore all the lush greenery and long grass to crop millimetres off the centre of the field.

So my observations are... Sheep like sitting under trees.

Sheep will generally not eat the grass that grows in the shade of trees.

Sheep sitting under trees means they preferentially manure the ground that isn't producing the preferred grass.

So why have more trees then necessary for shading? I think I'm with salatin.

 

[Bury the Trash]

To take up isabella tree and the whole silvopasture thing -

I'm not a believer. I took on some grazing that had a lovely park like bit.

This, according to her is the landscape herbivores love...

Sheep won't go near it, they ignore all the lush greenery and long grass to crop millimetres off the centre of the field.

So my observations are... Sheep like sitting under trees.

Sheep will generally not eat the grass that grows in the shade of trees.

Sheep sitting under trees means they preferentially manure the ground that isn't producing the preferred grass.

So why have more trees then necessary for shading? I think I'm with salatin.

That is pretty much what I find with parkland, the shade and shelter is a good thing but the area around the trees is not very productive for grazing .

 

[The Ruminant]

That is pretty much what I find with parkland, the shade and shelter is a good thing but the area around the trees is not very productive for grazing .

I find that when a field is set stocked the area under the trees has lots of rank, manure-tainted grass. The livestock don’t touch it.

When mob grazing they love the grass under trees. Presumably it’s sweeter, less contaminated, has more nutrients from leaf fall, etc??

Interesting to observe

 

[PhilipB]

I find that when a field is set stocked the area under the trees has lots of rank, manure-tainted grass. The livestock don’t touch it.

When mob grazing they love the grass under trees. Presumably it’s sweeter, less contaminated, has more nutrients from leaf fall, etc??

Interesting to observe

I think sheep like grass that grows in full sun.

Sun=sugar, doesn't it?

I don't think the manure tainting is the only issue. In a parched field there can be grass under trees untouched by hooves or dung and still not chosen for lunch.

 

[Bury the Trash]

I find that when a field is set stocked the area under the trees has lots of rank, manure-tainted grass. The livestock don’t touch it.

When mob grazing they love the grass under trees. Presumably it’s sweeter, less contaminated, has more nutrients from leaf fall, etc??

Interesting to observe

I was always under the impression that nitrates were bitter,? tannins def. are , they only hanker after a minimal amount of that at certain times I reckon, likeeating hedges ...

Your e def right that those dark green grasses would have more ' richness' but....
Anyway ...ref. sweetness ...The opposite it seems if its dunged on a lot like in a set stocked situation
Lower' nutriented' grass has more sugar pro rata it says...

https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/jrm/article/download/4473/4084

also as when I've reseeded mine around trees the type grass that thrives near it in the shade is not so palatable either same as under panalels, creeping fescue/ bent or something, they dont like it anyway,
Sheep I'm referring to.

Not like the op but in a 'deer park' setting subdividing fences are not an option either.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Not disagreeing but we're not talking a tree in a 50 acre field here. Our nicest large oak is within 50 yards of other trees. Our biggest field is 20 acres and I want to plant a hedge to divide that up, then some trees dotted around as well.

if you read Isabella Tree's book, she says Oaks are a tree of the open Savannah type of landscape, not closed canopy woodland, and Oaks regenerated in more open grassland (in the roots of thorn trees) by Jays "planting" them there (storing as a larder for later) and remembering and digging them up, a real symbiotic relationship that benefits both species. And the thorn tree is used as a natural tree guard.