Slaughter codes for halal

Location
Cleveland
The truth is you don't have a clue what you're on about, I was at an abattoir last week, nearly every ewe slaughtered was in lamb. Pregnant ewes travelling hundreds of miles to the abattoir is a far greater animal welfare issue, then halal or kosher will ever be.

Why are slaughtermen in major abattoirs walking off the slaughter lines because British farmers are sending pregnant cattle in for slaughter? Is that not cruel?

Go and visit an abattoir see how strictly they are regulated, visit a few farms then come back with something constructive please.
These farmers should be fined and banned from sending stock to slaughter without a vets certificate to prove they are not pregnant
 

mwj

Member
Location
Illinois USA
Mwj There is an outcry against Kosher, all religious slaughter that kills animals that are not fully stunned into unconsciousness is being challenged. This has nothing to do with people but it has to do with the methods that animals are killed for meat.


As you have dredged up my old post I will ask you a question. From what is posted 100% of Kosher sheep slaughter is non stun and 15% of Halal is non stun, why do ''you'' not mention Jewish, 85% of the time when you post a religion? This is the point that you go out of your way to ignore. As far as you saying that recoverable stunning always allows terror and pain, Would you have to be ''brain dead'' for major surgery?:scratchhead:
 
Last edited:

kiwi pom

Member
Location
canterbury NZ
The truth is you don't have a clue what you're on about, I was at an abattoir last week, nearly every ewe slaughtered was in lamb. Pregnant ewes travelling hundreds of miles to the abattoir is a far greater animal welfare issue, then halal or kosher will ever be.

Why are slaughtermen in major abattoirs walking off the slaughter lines because British farmers are sending pregnant cattle in for slaughter? Is that not cruel?

Go and visit an abattoir see how strictly they are regulated, visit a few farms then come back with something constructive please.

The abattoir end of livestock farming is one I think a lot of livestock farmers pretend doesn't exist. Perhaps anyone keeping livestock should have to go and work in an abattoir for a week, just so they understand the whole process?
If nothing else it may stop some of the hobby farmers keeping stock, which might reduce numbers and actually push up prices.
Always jobs going at freezing works here, not bad money, it would be a fair way down my list of jobs though.
 

Smith31

Member
Are you saying a small amount of farmers

why is this not reported ,yes I’ve seen cattle slaughtered been rearing cattle over 40 years,I find what you are saying terrible ,anyone sending livestock in like that should be ashamed.Out of interest as I have no first hand experience do they kill pregnant cows if Tb reactors.
To be honest a lot of farmers,never mind the public don’t know half of what goes on.Very sad world we live in.

I am not going to name business names on here but farmers who send cattle in to abattoirs who supply major retailers will have all received emails from abattoirs warning them of the issue of sending in pregnant cattle, it is that widespread.

I have seen first hand slaughter men arguing with the plant ovs, asking for an explanation as to why he is allowing pregnant cattle to be slaughtered.

It's pointless debating on here because the same handful of farmers that post on the anti halal threads have no experience of abattoir regulations or operations nor do they see what farmers actually send to slaughter and blame all welfare issues on halal.

Without halal and kosher, sheep farmers will be worse off there is no doubt about it, its a niche which keeps the marts alive.
 

nelly55

Member
Location
Yorkshire
Just because some of us post against non stun ,please do not treat us as idiots who don’t understand .Yes we may not work in the industry but for those who actually take our livestock in for deadweight selling have every chance to ask questions and see the operation.Yes you are right not to name and shame but please accept the point of view against non stun.As I said before farm assurance should be birth to death ,but how many are farm assured.End of my comments on this matter.
 

Sandyqqq

Member
The truth is you don't have a clue what you're on about, I was at an abattoir last week, nearly every ewe slaughtered was in lamb. Pregnant ewes travelling hundreds of miles to the abattoir is a far greater animal welfare issue, then halal or kosher will ever be.

Why are slaughtermen in major abattoirs walking off the slaughter lines because British farmers are sending pregnant cattle in for slaughter? Is that not cruel?

Go and visit an abattoir see how strictly they are regulated, visit a few farms then come back with something constructive please.

The long journeys and slaughtering of pregnant livestock is abhorrent and extremely cruel and we can all agree on that but two wrongs don’t make a right. It should be reported so that people can see what goes on. Our nearest slaughterhouse has had to close due to the high costs of updating the buildings and installing large numbers of cameras. They were well run, high animal welfare and with great respect to all the livestock they dealt with.
 

Sandyqqq

Member
I for one will never give up on working to get Halal and Kosher banned.
It is cruel, barbaric and medieval and has no place in modern times now we have more humane ways of killing animals for meat.
 

Highland Mule

Member
Livestock Farmer
I for one will never give up on working to get Halal and Kosher banned.
It is cruel, barbaric and medieval and has no place in modern times now we have more humane ways of killing animals for meat.

Do us a favour then and either contribute something else to this forum or take your misguided and incorrect but obviously well meaning propaganda elsewhere.
 

Smith31

Member
Just because some of us post against non stun ,please do not treat us as idiots who don’t understand .Yes we may not work in the industry but for those who actually take our livestock in for deadweight selling have every chance to ask questions and see the operation.Yes you are right not to name and shame but please accept the point of view against non stun.As I said before farm assurance should be birth to death ,but how many are farm assured.End of my comments on this matter.

With respect I very much doubt your farm adheres to the strict animal welfare regs that abattoirs have to adhere too.

If you're so concerned send an email to Woodheads etc tell them to do a deal with the Irish farmers and take the 20,000 cattle which are exported alive for halal and flood the English beef market, just imagine all the pain and suffering you will prevent. Doubt you'll do that as your cattle would be worthless then ;).
 

J Cookson

Member
If all the UK Abattoirs are Halal Certified (as detailed in earleir posts), who pays for that Certification? I am fully aware that Every Abattoir is authorised to conduct Halal/Kosher Slaughter because it is the nature of their work but to become a registered Halal Certified Abattoir or indeed a Kosher Certified Abattoir costs money which is usually Volume based or a recurring annual fee.
A recent report stated JBS group had paid almost £2 Million in Halal Certification fees over a short period. Who pays for that Certification and what is the average many abattoirs are willing to pay in the UK?
Isn't this fee added to the pricing of Slaughter costs as part of the Abattoir pricing strategy and doesn't this mean all consumers of that Meat will have to pay for that Certification regardless of their own religion (I believe this is what many consumers have issues with especially with Kosher meat as it is clear this is being subsidised by non jewish consumers who eat the carcass remnants not cionsumed by Jewish consumers because they don't just throw that meat away - or profits are affected for abattoirs/farmers/meat wholesalers alike)?

But if the Religious Slaughter criteria is to be adhered too then don't all animals being slaughtered have to slaughtered by a Muslim fully conversant with Islamic Religious laws or a Jewish approved Shochet? Some abattoirs bring in these people for special occasions or have private days or nominated days for Halal/Kosher slaughter but with Halal Slaughter becoming the default for most Abattoirs, does this mean Abattoir jobs are being taken away from non-religious workers or do abattoirs employ 2 lines of slaughter workers?

There are strict rules with Halal/Kosher for example the slaughter of Pigs cannot be conducted at an abattoir that has been Halal Certified (depending on the Halal Certification provider). what effect will this have in the long run for British Pig Farmers as the Religious Slaughter criteria starts to control abattoirs operations?

The meat has to be segregated from meat that is not to be consumed by either Jews/Muslims so extra additional starage areas are required (these are audited for such certifications). Any meat which comes into contact with meat not for consumption by muslims will become Haram (un permissible for Muslims). That meat automatically becomes non-Halal or Non-Kosher if integrity is to be maintained to comply with specific reiligious criteria (this is the case even if the animal had received pre-stun or not). Abattoirs will not just throw a carcass away so it gets passed on to the non-religious consumer market or profits are lost and this is very often without labelling or specific identifications (Mutch Meats admitted this a few years ago).

If this religious slaughter is believed to be issues only for the bigotted (as referred to in earlier posts) then why is there a problem with labelling Religiously Slaughtered Meats as such whether Pre-Stunned or Not. What is the Meat Industry afraid off? Is it because they are afraid of being Labelled Islamaphobic or Anti-Semetic surely not? If Islamic and Jewish consumers paid the price for their choice of Slaughter wouldn't that be a fair position for all consumers? These minority religions have played the race card before many times on this subject matter and is why labelling has not been approved but should all Meat consumers be held to ransom by this?

Any views on this would be appreciated because it would be interested to understand the perspectives..
 

Highland Mule

Member
Livestock Farmer
Too long to answer it all, but why not have a chat with the management at your local abattoir. I would imagine that the material costs of any special treatments are passed on to the customers of that special treatment - that’s how most large businesses operate.

That said, I suspect that for some areas the extra throughput of Halal and Kosher slaughter is so huge that they might even feel that it is the non-halal that is the cost centre. If you have a 5,000 Halal and 200 non killed a week, it’s the non that are the costly inconvenience, vice versa and the opposite.
 

J Cookson

Member
Unfortunately it is not passed onto the appropriate market due to standardisation of Religious Slaughter methodology used.... i.e Employing of Muslim Slaughtermen for Slaughter or indeed faking Religious Slaughter (in the eyes of Sharia compliance) where in particular Poultry Abattoirs employ a Muslim Employee to switch on and operate conveyor lines just so they can claim a Muslim recited a prayer at the time of slaughter (bizarrely one prayer is used for the duration of that employee being on duty stint (when someone comes to take over as a relief another prayer is recited to cover that employees stint on the production line - this is documented). Yet a Halal Certification fee is being paid for that production line (this is because of certain Halal Certification bodies accepting practicality for money). But in the end the carcass, although slaughtered the exact same way is processed (using modern facilities and automation to strip those carcasses minimising human contact whenever possible) can be packaged in exactly the same way with the addition of a Halal Label where required. Yet this same process requires payment to a Halal Certification Body which is added to all running costs of that plant or even the business depending on what was certified. Indeed many Halal Certification bodies assess the business and look at the highest method of extracting fees. In some businesses it is 2p per bird (info from Halal actual Certification body) and when you consider how many birds are slaughtered in modern poulty abattoirs, it soon adds up as does the costs to all consumers regardless of faith as they do not add those costs only to Halal as it is the plant that is certified! But even if they did the business would pass that cost across the whole production cost as it makes business sense which is why meat/Poultry considered as Religious Slaughtered is as cheap or even cheaper to consumers of that religion. I understand the logistics of separation but it is not unacheivable to completely segregate religious slaughtered products and charge accordingly but then we have the Race Cards being played to not have those increase of costs passed down to those religions (documents are available to prove this is the case).
Currently in the case of Poultry Slaughter the use of CAS (CASK) is considered unacceptable for Religious Slaughter because the method is considered an IRRECOVERABLE STUN which means the bird will not recover/revive so technically is dead (as is the same as Full Captive Bolt for Cattle). That is the one main constant in all Religious Slaughter Certifications in that the Animal MUST BE ALIVE FOR SLAUGHTER/STICKING and in the case for stunned Religious Slaughter, it has to be able to proved it can revive (although there are strict prohibitions to allow recovery after recoverable stuns). But the question is when will this become acceptable for Religious Certification because it will come and the whole range of Slaughter will become Certifiable (I believe for money profiteering and not because of religious requiremnts).
This is indeed why many believe Electrical Stunning of Lamb/Sheep and indeed Beef Cattle are increasingly being Electrically stunned to ensure the Animal Remains alive by ensuring the method of Electronarcosis does not induce Cardiac Arrest, so they can pass off that product as Halal when required.
Isn't this why CAS is being used as a far more humane way to stun (especially with pigs when these cannot be used for Halal/Kosher). Why are Abattoirs and researchers looking dfor technolgy that does not Stun-to-Kill but effectively Stun-to-Paralyse a term often used in the industry.
 

Werzle

Member
Location
Midlands
British veterinary association keep asking for non stun to be banned and they know more than any of us. I think meat eaters are being put off from eating meat because it isnt labelled as to which method it was killed by. Lets not kid ourselves, the only reason it hasnt been banned is because of politics over riding animal welfare. Perhaps after brexit on oct 31st and moving into a more commonsense era we will finally see it outlawed. Lets all live in a fairer society ,under and by the same rules and laws .
 

Werzle

Member
Location
Midlands
We get accused of all sorts now for calling for the end of non stun and supporting hard brexit but its water off a ducks back. I actually agree with the muslim families protesting outside there schools about there infant children being taught about lgbt etc so i cant be islamophobic but i guess i must now be homophobic too.
 

nelly55

Member
Location
Yorkshire
Why does race,religion have to be raised every time as an excuse not to ban non stun.Simple solution put a label on the meat.No they won’t do that because it would mean customers would ask why it is labelled.What does it mean ,they would have to give clear answers then as to how and Why livestock is killed that way.Hiding the slaughter code on the back of the packet tells most customers nothing.Lets have a large clear label on it all.Sales will then dictate who cares.This goverment states they have a right to eat meat killed this way ,the rest of us do not give them the right force feed it to us.Once again I say it’s the 21st century does an animal now not respect a painless,fearless death or is farm assurance left at the farm gate.No one will convince me different,I may end my days not rearing livestock nor eating meat in this cruel uncaring world.
 

Highland Mule

Member
Livestock Farmer
Why does race,religion have to be raised every time as an excuse not to ban non stun.Simple solution put a label on the meat.No they won’t do that because it would mean customers would ask why it is labelled.What does it mean ,they would have to give clear answers then as to how and Why livestock is killed that way.Hiding the slaughter code on the back of the packet tells most customers nothing.Lets have a large clear label on it all.Sales will then dictate who cares.This goverment states they have a right to eat meat killed this way ,the rest of us do not give them the right force feed it to us.Once again I say it’s the 21st century does an animal now not respect a painless,fearless death or is farm assurance left at the farm gate.No one will convince me different,I may end my days not rearing livestock nor eating meat in this cruel uncaring world.

Agreed, 100%, but I note the thread title and that you are the OP. Granted you have expressed regret before, but if industry insiders cannot get things right, how can the wider public be expected to do so?
 

J Cookson

Member
You may want to read this:
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...-9580-48CD6C9A110A/Non-StunSlaughterOfAnimals

Extracts:

Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con):
The BVA believes “that slaughter without pre-stunning unnecessarily compromises animal welfare and that animals should be stunned before slaughter.”

Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con):
Does my hon. Friend agree that the situation could be vastly improved in the short term by changing our labelling laws and requiring products to be labelled to show whether stunning has taken place?

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP):
Like the hon. Gentleman, I eat red meat regularly and I am also an animal lover. However, I do believe we can accommodate people. If we had the labelling to indicate whether stunning was used, people would have the opportunity to choose whether to buy that meat.

John Howell (Henley) (Con):
I understand what my hon. Friend is saying about stunning, but unfortunately, it does not always work. Something like 26,000 cattle, 100,000 pigs and 9.5 million chickens are mis-stunned each year. How do we solve that problem?

Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that on many occasions stunning involves sending a very strong electric shock to the animal, which can suffer for about 20 or 25 minutes while it is being made unconscious, causing excruciating pain?

Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Ind):
Many of my constituents have contacted me about this issue. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the traditional methods of slaughter, which are used in the Muslim and Jewish religions, are in fact more humane than some of the modern practices, which either do not work properly or do not give due consideration to the welfare of the animal?

Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con):
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing this debate and taking my intervention. Does he agree that many residents in my constituency want proper labelling—as has been mentioned—so that they can make a conscious choice about how their animals are killed? I am a great believer in labelling, and I hope that the Minister is listening. We should push for better labelling for slaughtered animals.

Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab):
I am not suggesting that the hon. Gentleman is saying this, but , , ? It is used as a tool by Tommy Robinson et al. and by newspapers to propagate headlines such as “Halal secret of Pizza Express” and “Brit kids forced to eat Halal school dinners”. It goes into that area.
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that while we are having the debate, we must ensure—I cannot speak for the other countries that he named—the religious freedom that our democracy is so proud of? In this instance, we are talking about two religious communities, the Jewish community and the Muslim community, which are directly affected by the debate and what he is proposing.

Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con):
In response to the hon. Lady’s point, as I have mentioned, while some slaughter practices do not allow pre-stunning, in accordance with religious rites, some halal authorities consider that pre-stunning is permissible, provided that the stun does not kill the animal and that the animal could have theoretically regained consciousness. That is an important point, because many consumers of meat may not buy it if it is signified as halal because they believe it is from an animal that was not stunned. That represents an unnecessary loss to the market.
I ask the Government to address the evidence being put forward by organisations such as the BVA and RSPCA. There have been a number of stark illustrations, which I referred to earlier. I will not go through them all again, but I am happy to send hon. Members copies of the BVA submission if they would like.
In the absence of a ban, we could move forward in other ways. The first way forward is to look at over-production. If non-stun slaughter is to continue, .

Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con):
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing this debate and taking my intervention. Does he agree that many residents in my constituency —as has been mentioned—so that they can make a conscious choice about how their animals are killed? , . We should push for better labelling for slaughtered animals.

Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for giving way and I also thank the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), who secured the debate, especially for his explicit and helpful statement at the outset that he did not intend in any way to impact on religious freedom or expression. Will the Minister confirm that, regardless of the outcome of the ongoing Brexit negotiations, the rights of the Jewish and Muslim faiths to have meat prepared in accordance with their beliefs will always be protected?

David Rutley:
but It is important that we have a discussion about these issues and I will come on to say how we can do that. However, since the 1930s we have had a tradition of respecting the religious rights of both the Jewish community and the Muslim community, and we will honour that tradition.

Let me come back to the point about religious slaughter. On non-stun slaughter in particular, I restate that it is the Government’s preference that all animals are stunned before slaughter. However, as I said in answer to the hon. Member for Bradford East (Imran Hussain)—this relates to the comments made by the hon. Member for Bradford West (Naz Shah)—the Government respect the rights of Jews and Muslims to eat meat prepared in accordance with their beliefs. Therefore, we allow religious slaughter of animals by Muslims and Jews , in keeping with their traditions.

Yasmin Qureshi:
I thank the Minister for mentioning mis-stunning. Will he ensure that if there is going to be labelling, we are told on the label exactly the methodology adopted in the stunning?

David Rutley:
The heart of the discussion today has been about labelling. We know that concerns have been voiced about meat from animal slaughter without stunning being sold to consumers who do not require their meat to be prepared in that way. The Government are clear that we want people to have the information they need to make informed choices about the food that they buy. , ’ , as I set out in a speech at the annual dinner for the BVA back in February.

It is important to note that there are other groups that want to know not only whether the meat is from a stunned or non-stunned animal, but what method of slaughter has been used. That will need to be considered in the wider review of labelling.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 77 43.5%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 62 35.0%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 28 15.8%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 4 2.3%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,286
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top