Small holding advice for new tennancy

[FarmerStef]

Hi All,

Just need some advice. Have an opportunity to apply for the lease of a smallholding and the landlord seems favourable as to considering my bid (am already a tennant of his in another property). However, there is an agricultural tie on the property in question and it is not big enough to function as a purely agricultural business (10 acres) so my initial proposal was based on what would be my main source of income, for which I will only need to utilise about 1.5 acres, but am looking at options to split my business plan between both an agricultural and non agricultural venture, potentially using the remaining land to breed either sheep or alpacas. The landlord's obstacles are that he is concerned about inheritance tax, the kind of lease he can let it under etc. My question is: Can I still lease under agricultural tie if the majority of the income (but not the majority of the use of land) is from non agricultural (but still animal related) business? Does anyone have any good suggestions for the use of the rest of the land? Have to clarify that I am qualified and been farm manager on small diverse farms (kinderboerderij=City farm in Holland, a format of farming aimed at education but not as a charity and I haven't really seen here). Any advice very welcome

 

[Formatted]

I thought Agricultural ties only applied to who owns the property not who rents it?

 

[Matt]

I thought Agricultural ties only applied to who owns the property not who rents it?

Think anyone can own it just people who are in it have to comply.

 

[Lazy Sod]

Ag tie relates just to who can live in the house and has nothing at all to do with any land that may or may not be attached to it.

 

[Still Farming]

I thought Agricultural ties only applied to who owns the property not who rents it?

Planning condition only .

 

[smj1]

Majority of your income has to be from agriculture/forestry normally. Irrelevant what you do with the land for the purpose of that unless his planning stipulates otherwise.

 

[FarmerStef]

had a look at the agricultural holdings act, can't actually find anywhere that says you need to be making most of the monies from agric activities. Was just wondering, whether presenting a business plan based on raising sheep and keeping alpacas (so as to utilise the majority of the land, which btw way would be awesome and hadn't thought of it but would make me happy like a pig in mud!) with an additional income from what is not classed as agricultural but would insure a steady income and insure that the small holding makes financial sense and can be an independent business, with only 10 acres. Would that not suffice as an independent farming business, with so many farms now having to diversify anyway? Could it be as easy as just giving it the right name?

 

[smj1]

Might be different in other areas but every one of have come across is as above. You or your partner must be solely or mainly (ie. most of your earnings) employed or last employed if retired in agriculture or forestry. They are very very restrictive ties and as such rent is normally peanuts. Its also quite often got to be locally. Ask your local council of National Park if in one and they will give you an answer. We tried a few years back when I was a farrier and had a flock of just under 100 sheep. Got a definite no as farming didnt provide my main income. Ties are placed as conditions of granting planning by local authorities. Nothing to do with agricultural holdings act as far as I'm aware

 

[FarmerStef]

Might be different in other areas but every one of have come across is as above. You or your partner must be solely or mainly (ie. most of your earnings) employed or last employed if retired in agriculture or forestry. They are very very restrictive ties and as such rent is normally peanuts. Its also quite often got to be locally. Ask your local council of National Park if in one and they will give you an answer. We tried a few years back when I was a farrier and had a flock of just under 100 sheep. Got a definite no as farming didnt provide my main income. Ties are placed as conditions of granting planning by local authorities. Nothing to do with agricultural holdings act as far as I'm aware

That sucks! totally! I'll have to look into the option of breeding alpacas that grow fleeces made of gold.. Really sad to think people can't come into the farming profession if not born into it as its so reliant on the right premises. Have nearly 20 years experience in animal industry, but none that qualify for tenancy under an agricultural tie.
What really confuses me is that an acquaintance of mine took on the lease for her stepfather's farm when he retired and all she does is run a horse livery and manages the business units, the agricultural land was all surrendered back to the estate. So, I know Livery yards don't qualify under the conditions of an agricultural tie, how does that work?

 

[gwdunn]

Much will depend on the specific wording of the tie. It might simply say that occupiers have to be working in agriculture which would be fine in your case. If the tie said “full time” in agriculture then you might struggle.

 

[honeyend]

In my experience it depends on the council. Most of the ag ties around here were set up in the 30/40's and were to help people to make a living off the land on a small acreage, which might have been possible then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Settlement_Association
If you have a few sheep, cut your grass for hay or sell a few plants that in practice satisfies the tie. I know people who live on these holding and most them make their living from other jobs, its just not possible to make a descent living off 10 acres, and I think councils are aware of this.
I think as long as your business has little impact on the agricultural surroundings, no one will bother you. Who is going to know whether you are in full time agriculture or not unless you have really nosey neighbours
My neighbour house was part a family farm that was sold off in lots about 8 years ago. It had a ag tie but they managed to get it lifted.

 

[renewablejohn]

Whats this rubbish about not being able to earn a living off 10 acres. All depends on what you grow and how efficient you are at growing it. Many market gardeners have a standard market garden size of 5 acres and make a sustainable living off it.

 

[honeyend]

There may be some people who can make a living out of 10 acres, but in my experience everyone I know who has a ag tie plot has a second job, and or their partner is also working not in agriculture. Everyone has different expectations out of life, my brother in law had a soft fruit market garden, and also had a full time job on a farm, but its doubtful that they would be able to do what they wanted and pay the mortgage without my sister working full time.

 

[renewablejohn]

There may be some people who can make a living out of 10 acres, but in my experience everyone I know who has a ag tie plot has a second job, and or their partner is also working not in agriculture. Everyone has different expectations out of life, my brother in law had a soft fruit market garden, and also had a full time job on a farm, but its doubtful that they would be able to do what they wanted and pay the mortgage without my sister working full time.

Just annoys me the disrespect small farmers have in this country. Anywhere else in Europe small farmers are looked after as an essential part of the farming community and entitled to farm subsidy. In England you dont exist unless you have at least 5 hectares of eligible land which automatically excludes a lot of market gardeners, chicken sheds and pig producers.

 

[FarmerStef]

I would love to be able to work this 10 acre property as a farm, but my experience is in animal husbandry, not in growing crops, I don't know of any way to make it work on this scale on production from animals alone unless putting up big barns and start rearing turkeys or chickens but that's such a massive expense and not the way I would want to go. Worked on a lovely farm back home. We had 6 cows that calved every year, one breeding sow, farrowing 2x a year, keeping piglets op to 30/40 kg, keeping 3 back to go to 80 kg. There were around 25 goats of different rare breeds which used to get milked, lambing every year and around 80 rare breed sheep, galloway cattle and exmoor ponies in natural land management projects around the outskirts of the city, as well as breeding different chicken and pheasant breeds. All tied to the local council and part of the income came from visitors and education. I wish there was a way of doing that here. How lovely would it be to take the kids to a working farm on the weekend and be able to get involved! We had loads of community volunteers, helping with husbandry, maintenance, ran the coffee shop, etc.

 

[wasted years]

You might have to tell a porky or two to comply with the rules.
Not everything in life is black and white (said the wise man).

 

[renewablejohn]

Maybe need to think a bit more outside the box. You say your used to working with pigs well 10 acres would give you a large free range pig farm. If you made the pig arcs Solar Arcs the income from that would substantially contribute to the farming income.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

That sucks! totally! I'll have to look into the option of breeding alpacas that grow fleeces made of gold.. Really sad to think people can't come into the farming profession if not born into it as its so reliant on the right premises. Have nearly 20 years experience in animal industry, but none that qualify for tenancy under an agricultural tie.
What really confuses me is that an acquaintance of mine took on the lease for her stepfather's farm when he retired and all she does is run a horse livery and manages the business units, the agricultural land was all surrendered back to the estate. So, I know Livery yards don't qualify under the conditions of an agricultural tie, how does that work?

Agricultural ties are all about someone wanting to build a house, where, normally they would not get planning permission, but they have said they need the house to manage the farm, so the planners say, okay, but the house must be lived in by someone working locally in farming or forestry (or retired from that job, or their widow or widower). Because of the restrictions in occupation, usually these properties are worth maybe 25% less than a house without restrictions. It has nothing to do with having 10 acres, I am guessing there would have been a lot more than 10 acres attached to the house when planning was granted, but it has subsequently been sold off.

 

[Still Farming]

Don't worry about size.
Some clowns can't earn a living on 1000 acres ?

 

[FarmerStef]

Maybe need to think a bit more outside the box. You say your used to working with pigs well 10 acres would give you a large free range pig farm. If you made the pig arcs Solar Arcs the income from that would substantially contribute to the farming income.

That's a really interesting idea. Is there anywhere you recommend I go to find out more?