Smallholder to Farmer

Big Ambitions

Member
Livestock Farmer
Hi all, I’ve currently got a small flock of Texel ewes and Suffolk x gimmers. I’m currently slightly overstocked on 5 acres of land. I’m looking for more land, which I suppose everyone is! But want to expand slowly but surely. I want to slightly change my tactics, I’m going to buy in Lleyn ewes (or ewe lambs) this year and breed my own maternal replacements. With an end goal of having around 600-800 ewes in the next 10 or so years. Operating a closed flock, only buying in tups. Maybe after a few years breeding some tups to sell when I’m confident in what I want (and the buyers want) from the breed. Until then I’ll be ringing rams and selling them prime as well as any ewe lambs I’m not 100% happy with. I’ve got time on my side, one of the most hard workers you’ll meet and cash flow from other work, which I’m not afraid to invest, and I’m looking at paying myself a very small wage (if any) from the sheep enterprise to facilitate rapid expansion. I’ve done my workings out, and the only thing that will halt me is procurement of grazing. Has anyone else done this before? Have I completely lost the plot?? (Although I suppose we are all a bit nutty to be in farming). Apologies for the long and slightly rambling post! Need to get my thoughts out and come from a very non-farming background. Constructive criticism and advice is most welcome!!
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Fife
Hi all, I’ve currently got a small flock of Texel ewes and Suffolk x gimmers. I’m currently slightly overstocked on 5 acres of land. I’m looking for more land, which I suppose everyone is! But want to expand slowly but surely. I want to slightly change my tactics, I’m going to buy in Lleyn ewes (or ewe lambs) this year and breed my own maternal replacements. With an end goal of having around 600-800 ewes in the next 10 or so years. Operating a closed flock, only buying in tups. Maybe after a few years breeding some tups to sell when I’m confident in what I want (and the buyers want) from the breed. Until then I’ll be ringing rams and selling them prime as well as any ewe lambs I’m not 100% happy with. I’ve got time on my side, one of the most hard workers you’ll meet and cash flow from other work, which I’m not afraid to invest, and I’m looking at paying myself a very small wage (if any) from the sheep enterprise to facilitate rapid expansion. I’ve done my workings out, and the only thing that will halt me is procurement of grazing. Has anyone else done this before? Have I completely lost the plot?? (Although I suppose we are all a bit nutty to be in farming). Apologies for the long and slightly rambling post! Need to get my thoughts out and come from a very non-farming background. Constructive criticism and advice is most welcome!!

2 biggest barrier to entry are access to capital and access to land. If you’ve got 1 sorted put your energy into the other.

Biggest factor in access to land is location, closely followed by networking.
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Yeees... first off, and this is constructive, regardless of what you expect now, it's going to be far more difficult, time consuming, expensive, depressing and infuriating than you think.

That written, if you enjoy it and can afford it and are prepared to put the hours and cash in, there is no reason why you shouldn't give it a go, but be prepared not to meet your desired numbers in your desired time. Yes, it has been done before, many, many times, though it's probably fair to write that it's certainly a bit more difficult now than previously, not least due to land prices.

Advice... you'll get loads, probably best to pay attention to that which seems right and is offered or agreed to by several people. I'd say spend as much as possible on the best stock you can at the start, think long and hard about what you want to do and choice of breed. Cull ruthlessly. Either struggle for as long as you can with the cheapest kit you can get away with, or buy the best as a long-term investment and sanity retainer (depending on how rich you are) - in either case, whenever possible buy good used kit rather than new stuff. Learn to trust your own judgement, you will make some bloody stupid decisions which didn't seem so at the time, we all do, but the more self-reliant you are the better. Read up and don't think you need you need to pay for 'expert' help too often - and lastly, when you've got injuries and illness in your flock, keep a close eye on the value of the animal against treatment costs.

Best of British! (y)

I was going to tag @unlacedgecko but see he's here already.
 

Highland Mule

Member
Livestock Farmer
Geography - where are you?
Budget - how much do you have, and are you prepared to lose it all?
Experience - what's the biggest flock you've managed?
Age - do you have 10+ years of reasonable fitness ahead of you?
Time - do you have any more commitments or draws on your time (family, business, job)?

Do not underestimate that there are many hurdles you'll need to overcome, but it is possible if you have the resources, drive and time.
 

Boso

Member
I've started grazing sheep 5-6 years ago.
600 is far more work than you can imagine. How do I know, well my 130 ewe flock is at times quite a bit more work next to a full time job than I would like it to be.
This is the hardest part ime, working fulltime which you have to to pay for your expansion together with a farming enterprise and just regular live.

Slow expansion will make you familiar with the whole sheep thing and might keep you free from debt, however it might also kill your motivation since it will take years to generate a substantial income if you just keep growing slowly. Took me five-six years to get to a a 130 ewe flock and great deal of what is required to keep them. In hindsight I would have rather organised 50-75k and grow the business much faster, which would mean the city job could be scaled down.

You will need quite a bit more capital than you'd think. A car capable of towing a trailer, a livestock trailer, an atv/rtv, maybe a tractor, electric fencing equipment, insurance, feed, meds, trained dog (dog food, housing, meds etc)
If you can't arrange winter grazing, 600 sheep will eat a lot of hay in a day.
Less capital will mean more labour. If you've got the time that might be fine.

Like mentioned by others, your network is extremely important. Winter grazing on another farmers land isn't offered to everyone. Took me three years to persuade someone to let me graze their cover crop.

Have been a member of several breed clubs, membership from a magazine, membership of the national sheep breeders association. I recently found out that per ewe this was a cost of almost 6 euro.....
You can gain so much knowledge at places like this and from free accesible academic research.

I sold my mongrel heard this year and invested 20k in a mv clean shedder flock. Biggest individual investment so far. Only got me 130 ewes (pure shedders, mv free are expensive over here). I really wanted to be mv free fast. Financially it would have made more sense to just breed up from the mongrel heard and start testing a percentage every year for mv and go from there.

In your case if you want to move towards a lleyn flock, I'd buy a lleyn ram (best one you can get) not lleyn ewes.
 

Big Ambitions

Member
Livestock Farmer
Geography - where are you?
Budget - how much do you have, and are you prepared to lose it all?
Experience - what's the biggest flock you've managed?
Age - do you have 10+ years of reasonable fitness ahead of you?
Time - do you have any more commitments or draws on your time (family, business, job)?

Do not underestimate that there are many hurdles you'll need to overcome, but it is possible if you have the resources, drive and time.
Geography- South east Scotland
Budget - I’ve got a small but growing budget. I’m prepared to heavily invest if needed, but will also by trying to keep my costs to a minimum
Experience - I’ve managed 500 ewes and 150 hoggs (outdoor lambing), plus my own small flock for 2 years
Age - yes, I’m in my 20s, so I very much hope I’ve got 10 years fitness. I regularly go to the gym (in normal times) to keep active and fit
Time - I’ve got no other real commitments, no family at the moment, a small side business which hasn’t been making any money for the past year due to covid, so I will be winding it up at some point. In terms of work I have a stable job at the moment, looking to be continuing with that, I’m able to reduce my hours as time goes on.

Thank you for all your comments, I’m very driven, but also not cocky. That’s why I’m looking at the Lleyn breed, my original plan was to do some crossing maternal ewes, but if worst came to worst and I had to sell up. Lleyn is a well known breed and would sell a lot easier than maternal mongrels as they would possibly be a few years down the line
 

Big Ambitions

Member
Livestock Farmer
I've started grazing sheep 5-6 years ago.
600 is far more work than you can imagine. How do I know, well my 130 ewe flock is at times quite a bit more work next to a full time job than I would like it to be.
This is the hardest part ime, working fulltime which you have to to pay for your expansion together with a farming enterprise and just regular live.

Slow expansion will make you familiar with the whole sheep thing and might keep you free from debt, however it might also kill your motivation since it will take years to generate a substantial income if you just keep growing slowly. Took me five-six years to get to a a 130 ewe flock and great deal of what is required to keep them. In hindsight I would have rather organised 50-75k and grow the business much faster, which would mean the city job could be scaled down.

You will need quite a bit more capital than you'd think. A car capable of towing a trailer, a livestock trailer, an atv/rtv, maybe a tractor, electric fencing equipment, insurance, feed, meds, trained dog (dog food, housing, meds etc)
If you can't arrange winter grazing, 600 sheep will eat a lot of hay in a day.
Less capital will mean more labour. If you've got the time that might be fine.

Like mentioned by others, your network is extremely important. Winter grazing on another farmers land isn't offered to everyone. Took me three years to persuade someone to let me graze their cover crop.

Have been a member of several breed clubs, membership from a magazine, membership of the national sheep breeders association. I recently found out that per ewe this was a cost of almost 6 euro.....
You can gain so much knowledge at places like this and from free accesible academic research.

I sold my mongrel heard this year and invested 20k in a mv clean shedder flock. Biggest individual investment so far. Only got me 130 ewes (pure shedders, mv free are expensive over here). I really wanted to be mv free fast. Financially it would have made more sense to just breed up from the mongrel heard and start testing a percentage every year for mv and go from there.

In your case if you want to move towards a lleyn flock, I'd buy a lleyn ram (best one you can get) not lleyn ewes.
These are all very good points, I will very much be keeping an eye on costs, and wouldn’t be sinking money into a hole that isn’t making any money.
I’ve factored costs for the above into my budget too, and I will have cash spare each year for equipment etc. I’m picking up a pup next week to train up, although I don’t “need” one now, I probably will by the time it’s fully trained.

I’m slowly but surely building a network of farming friends, although a lot in the local area are older, they’re always happy to see someone younger getting on. My 3 closest neighbours have become very good contacts and friends, letting me use equipment and trailers (although I borrow as little as possible and always take it back with a bottle of wine).
 

Dry Rot

Member
Livestock Farmer
Yes, done this and had some some success, my problem being that I hate sheep and suddenly found I had a project that had taken off!

First, buy the best foundation stock you can afford. These won't be the biggest show winners or necessarily the most expensive, nor the ones that have the best recorded returns, but will be from very successful commercial flocks. It is not the number of sheep you keep or the size of them, but it is the total weight of meat you produce per acre. Aim for ewes that consistently produce twins as multiples waste your time. You have chosen wisely as Lleyns are good sheep. If you have access to professional advice, make a friend of your advisor. The advice you will get here and from other farmers will be variable and (excuse me!) you won't have the experience to be selective. Just listen to it all and choose carefully. I remember being told, "You are lucky, you are starting out with a clean slate and won't be inheriting any of the nonsense believed by previous generations!".

Leyns are sometimes tupped as hoggs (in their first year). Don't be afraid to do that and let Nature decide which ones should have a lamb. (I'll get some flak for that!). You can grow your flock very quickly doing this. Just make sure you feed in lamb hoggs for the growing mother and the lambs -- but don't over feed as Leyns can be prone to prolapse. I like the culling method used by some of my Australian pals from college. Make a note of the ear tag number of any sheep you have to put a hand on and why and use those notes to decide what to cull. God handling facilities will save you a lot of time. Learn how to train dogs and get good ones. Thy will be worth their weight in gold.

Lastly, find a good psychiatrist. You are going to need one! I don't have sheep any more and they let me out alone so long as I keep taking the medication! 😂
 

andybk

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Mendips Somerset
My advice , forget numbers , its all the associated things that are hard work like winter feed , tractors etc , i have access to lots of very small parcels often free , BUT the problem is you cant farm it normally , put muck on , plough etc , they just want it kept tidy all year , In your situation concentrate on a high value , semi pedigree flock , get your reputation sorted first , often an opportunity will come along maybe to get bigger or move in a different direction , or centralise your operation . Numbers in winter can be a real headache if it snows from November to march and sooner or later it will
 

Bald Rick

Moderator
Livestock Farmer
Location
Anglesey
Hi all, I’ve currently got a small flock of Texel ewes and Suffolk x gimmers. I’m currently slightly overstocked on 5 acres of land. I’m looking for more land, which I suppose everyone is! But want to expand slowly but surely. I want to slightly change my tactics, I’m going to buy in Lleyn ewes (or ewe lambs) this year and breed my own maternal replacements. With an end goal of having around 600-800 ewes in the next 10 or so years. Operating a closed flock, only buying in tups. Maybe after a few years breeding some tups to sell when I’m confident in what I want (and the buyers want) from the breed. Until then I’ll be ringing rams and selling them prime as well as any ewe lambs I’m not 100% happy with. I’ve got time on my side, one of the most hard workers you’ll meet and cash flow from other work, which I’m not afraid to invest, and I’m looking at paying myself a very small wage (if any) from the sheep enterprise to facilitate rapid expansion. I’ve done my workings out, and the only thing that will halt me is procurement of grazing. Has anyone else done this before? Have I completely lost the plot?? (Although I suppose we are all a bit nutty to be in farming). Apologies for the long and slightly rambling post! Need to get my thoughts out and come from a very non-farming background. Constructive criticism and advice is most welcome!!

Of course it can be done.

Lad not far from here came from a Manchester council estate and is now running a significant dairy herd of his own.
Good luck plays a part but there is no reason why you cannot succeed.
Major barrier is that you are going to be up against established farmers when it comes to bidding for land. And if you can, try and lock in to a minimum of 5 year FBT as that will underpin your dream while you are finding your feet
 

Big Ambitions

Member
Livestock Farmer
As an aside, if you're young enough, don't bother with the UK. Get a plane to Australia and get involved with farming there. ROI and land values are much better. No subs or tax advantages to distort the market.
As much as I’d love to, I have aging family in the UK and I don’t do planes as much as I can avoid them! Although it’s always an option in future
 

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

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