So much for the green revolution

[Mc115reed]

Absolutely 100% chapel bank the steelworks hi duty alloys etc all closed down. Can’t remember the red glow in the sky at night when they open the big doors.having said all we’ve been advertising for a tractor driver and there is no interest nobody seems to want practical work anymore.

Around Workington everybody is pushed into going too work for sellafield… the money there is madness, I was on £36,000 a year when I worked there at 17 it was just crazy no farmer can compete with that…

 

[renewablejohn]

https://www.southwales.ac.uk/news/news-2021/steel-is-vital-to-the-green-transition-heres-how-to-scrub-out-the-industrys-emissions/

Very careful use of words and does not state the obvious that if you want high carbon steel you need to introduce the carbon from somewhere, Whether that is by fossil fuel coal or renewable fuel charcoal does not really matter. Whats not in doubt is that hydrogen alone will not produce high carbon steel.

 

[kiwi pom]

You go up and say that in Wellington....


.

And I'll come down and watch!!!

Got to be better than burning coal and relying on empty lakes?

NZ imported more than a million tonnes of 'dirty' coal last year

In the same year that the government declared a climate emergency, imports of an especially dirty type of coal from Indonesia topped a million tonnes for the first time since 2006.

www.rnz.co.nz

 

[FonterraFarmer]

Got to be better than burning coal and relying on empty lakes?

NZ imported more than a million tonnes of 'dirty' coal last year

In the same year that the government declared a climate emergency, imports of an especially dirty type of coal from Indonesia topped a million tonnes for the first time since 2006.

www.rnz.co.nz

We see that s**t coming pasts 3 times a day, no Cindy like you be thinking but Indonesian coal.





I'll stop and shout a few beers the next time I head "South".

 

[Renaultman]

Absolutely 100% chapel bank the steelworks hi duty alloys etc all closed down. Can’t remember the red glow in the sky at night when they open the big doors.having said all we’ve been advertising for a tractor driver and there is no interest nobody seems to want practical work anymore.

Same at Redcar
But at least they are still rolling steel, there and Skinningrove, for how long though?

 

[Frankzy]

What is the new hydrogen steel, that they were on about yesterday from Sweden, that the green zealots are saying makes carbon steel obsolete?

Think there clueless of how steel is actually made. The Sweden factory is only replacing the heating process from LNG to Hydrogen it is not producing new steel from iron ore which normally uses coal or coke in the process. The only renewable substitute I know for this process is using torrefied wood (charcoal). There doing a similar process in St Helens with glass production replacing LNG with Hydrogen.

Uh no, that is exactly what LKAB's demo plant in Luleå does, they have completely switched out all coal and coke that is used to reduce the iron ore into usable sponge iron. Hydrogen is actually a perfectly good renewable substitute.

This means that not a single molecule of co2 has been produced up to the point where SSAB receives the pure sponge iron which then has to be alloyed with carbon to get steel.
And assuming you use an electric arc furnace rather than a blast furnace the amount of co2 created when doing this step is almost negligible. So that is why they can safely claim that this is the first fossil free steel in the world.

It's not the zealots that are calling this fossil free it's the three partner companies (LKAB, SSAB, and Vattenfall.) that started the project and they are definitely not clueless on how to make steel...

 

[renewablejohn]

Uh no, that is exactly what LKAB's demo plant in Luleå does, they have completely switched out all coal and coke that is used to reduce the iron ore into usable sponge iron. Hydrogen is actually a perfectly good renewable substitute.

This means that not a single molecule of co2 has been produced up to the point where SSAB receives the pure sponge iron which then has to be alloyed with carbon to get steel.
And assuming you use an electric arc furnace rather than a blast furnace the amount of co2 created when doing this step is almost negligible. So that is why they can safely claim that this is the first fossil free steel in the world.

It's not the zealots that are calling this fossil free it's the three partner companies (LKAB, SSAB, and Vattenfall.) that started the project and they are definitely not clueless on how to make steel...

See post 22. Think what you call sponge iron we call pig iron. Certainly not carbon steel.

 

[Frankzy]

See post 22. Think what you call sponge iron we call pig iron. Certainly not carbon steel.

Re-read my post, the process of turning iron into steel produces negligible co2 when you use an arc furnace. Reducing the iron is where you have to use all the coal and coke in a blast furnace. That is, until now..

 

[renewablejohn]

Re-read my post, the process of turning iron into steel produces negligible co2 when you use an arc furnace. Reducing the iron is where you have to use all the coal and coke in a blast furnace. That is, until now..

I can reread until the cows come home but it still does not alter the fact your not producing high carbon steel using hydrogen. All thats happened is that the low carbon steel which used to be made by LNG can now be made using Hydrogen. The high carbon steel using electric arc furnaces is just recycled scrap which already has the high carbon content. The problem has always been how to convert virgin iron into high carbon steel which you cannot do without a source of carbon. The problem was originally solved by chopping down trees and turning them into charcoal then some bright spark decided why not use trees from millions of years ago and the rest is history. I think your confusing the side effect of using coal in a blast furnace which reduces the iron from the primary task of altering the structure of the iron by adding the impurities of carbon to produce high carbon steel. So what is the source of carbon in these magic electric arc furnaces producing high carbon steel from virgin iron.

 

[Frankzy]

I can reread until the cows come home but it still does not alter the fact your not producing high carbon steel using hydrogen. All thats happened is that the low carbon steel which used to be made by LNG can now be made using Hydrogen. The high carbon steel using electric arc furnaces is just recycled scrap which already has the high carbon content. The problem has always been how to convert virgin iron into high carbon steel which you cannot do without a source of carbon. The problem was originally solved by chopping down trees and turning them into charcoal then some bright spark decided why not use trees from millions of years ago and the rest is history. I think your confusing the side effect of using coal in a blast furnace which reduces the iron from the primary task of altering the structure of the iron by adding the impurities of carbon to produce high carbon steel. So what is the source of carbon in these magic electric arc furnaces producing high carbon steel from virgin iron.

Maybe I really suck at making myself understood in English but you're not remotely close to what I've been saying so before you dismiss my request could you please at least try it once?
Here's what I see when I reread it:
No we're not using hydrogen in the steel process, it is being used in the iron process when reducing the iron ore into usable sponge iron. (That's even the first sentence!)
High carbon steel is then made in an electric arc furnace where the freshly produced sponge iron is alloyed with carbon from coke. This step produces barely any co2 because the only carbon used is that which gets absorbed by the iron and an EAF runs on electricity not coke nor LNG. I actually went to check and the waste is around 50-100kg co2 per ton of steel which is nothing.
The steel process was never the problem because the amount of carbon needed in an EAF is low enough that it is feasible to replace all of it with charcoal/biochar, something which SSAB already did several years ago. It's how to reduce iron ore with renewables that was the problem all along.
And since LKAB now has an operational demo plant producing just such iron we get, for the first time ever, fossil free high carbon steel!


I'm not the one confusing processes here.

 

[renewablejohn]

Maybe I really suck at making myself understood in English but you're not remotely close to what I've been saying so before you dismiss my request could you please at least try it once?
Here's what I see when I reread it:
No we're not using hydrogen in the steel process, it is being used in the iron process when reducing the iron ore into usable sponge iron. (That's even the first sentence!)
High carbon steel is then made in an electric arc furnace where the freshly produced sponge iron is alloyed with carbon from coke. This step produces barely any co2 because the only carbon used is that which gets absorbed by the iron and an EAF runs on electricity not coke nor LNG. I actually went to check and the waste is around 50-100kg co2 per ton of steel which is nothing.
The steel process was never the problem because the amount of carbon needed in an EAF is low enough that it is feasible to replace all of it with charcoal/biochar, something which SSAB already did several years ago. It's how to reduce iron ore with renewables that was the problem all along.
And since LKAB now has an operational demo plant producing just such iron we get, for the first time ever, fossil free high carbon steel!


I'm not the one confusing processes here.

I agree with most of what your saying here but from what I can see your LKAB plant has nothing to with producing high grade carbon steel. As far as I am aware the problem comes with the quality of injected carbon EAF being lower than blast furnace carbon steel. (Not to be confused with recycled scrap EAF which retains its original composition)

Future supplier of carbon dioxide-free sponge iron - LKAB

Our iron ore pellets will be replaced by carbon dioxide-free sponge iron, great both for the climate and our business.

www.lkab.com

All the pilot plant is doing is reducing iron ore using hydrogen instead of LNG. Nothing to do with high grade carbon steel. As I keep saying its greenwash by people who should know better comparing two totally different end products. Turn the clock back 300 years and you had fossil free steel production in the UK but we soon ran out of trees. Could do the same now with the waste tyre mountain as the technology already exists.

 

[Frankzy]

I agree with most of what your saying here but from what I can see your LKAB plant has nothing to with producing high grade carbon steel. As far as I am aware the problem comes with the quality of injected carbon EAF being lower than blast furnace carbon steel. (Not to be confused with recycled scrap EAF which retains its original composition)


All the pilot plant is doing is reducing iron ore using hydrogen instead of LNG. Nothing to do with high grade carbon steel. As I keep saying its greenwash by people who should know better comparing two totally different end products. Turn the clock back 300 years and you had fossil free steel production in the UK but we soon ran out of trees. Could do the same now with the waste tyre mountain as the technology already exists.

Ye Gods. At this point I hope it's on purpose. Nowhere did I say LKAB makes steel, I mean seriously!

If you're not going to read any of my previous posts let me summarise for you:
LKAB now makes carbon-free sponge iron, SSAB takes that iron along with a small amount of biochar and produces high quality, high carbon steel in their arc furnaces that is supplied with completely carbon-free electricity from Vattenfall.
There's no greenwashing...

 

[wr.]

My son in law's farm has 2 to 3 million tons of top quality steam coal still under it, according to the coal board. I keep telling him that one day it will be wanted.

 

[renewablejohn]

Ye Gods. At this point I hope it's on purpose. Nowhere did I say LKAB makes steel, I mean seriously!

If you're not going to read any of my previous posts let me summarise for you:
LKAB now makes carbon-free sponge iron, SSAB takes that iron along with a small amount of biochar and produces high quality, high carbon steel in their arc furnaces that is supplied with completely carbon-free electricity from Vattenfall.
There's no greenwashing...

Get off your high horse. The original question is at 13 and my response was at 17. The greenwash refers to the protesters comment saying that the blast furnace high carbon steel produced in wales which would use the coal there trying to get planning permission for in Cumbria could be replaced by the Hydrogen steel produced at LKAB. You clearly understand the difference between the two types of steel but obviously the person who made the comment was clueless.

 

[Frankzy]

Get off your high horse. The original question is at 13 and my response was at 17. The greenwash refers to the protesters comment saying that the blast furnace high carbon steel produced in wales which would use the coal there trying to get planning permission for in Cumbria could be replaced by the Hydrogen steel produced at LKAB. You clearly understand the difference between the two types of steel but obviously the person who made the comment was clueless.

It's not a high horse, I explained in my original post, #26, how your answer in #17 was completely wrong.
Then when you directed me to read #22, I asked you to reread my first post since you had clearly skipped the second paragraph which explains exactly what you got wrong in #22...
Then in #29 you yet again demonstrate that you didn't read any of my previous posts with this little gem:

The high carbon steel using electric arc furnaces is just recycled scrap

After I tried to explain again in #30 you reply in #31 wondering how the LKAB demo plant has anything to do with the steel when even way back in my original post it's clearly stated that they make the completely carbon-free sponge iron that is then used to make fossil-free high carbon steel by SSAB.

After this I just concluded that you had to be trolling me on purpose but I still decided to try and summarise things.

And now this

The greenwash refers to the protesters comment saying that the blast furnace high carbon steel produced in wales which would use the coal there trying to get planning permission for in Cumbria could be replaced by the Hydrogen steel produced at LKAB. You clearly understand the difference between the two types of steel but obviously the person who made the comment was clueless.

Once again you show that you completely skip past everything I write...

In case anyone else is still reading this the last quote is again wrong, there is no major difference between the two types of steel, one is a high carbon steel made in Wales, the other a high carbon steel made in Luleå. The one made in Wales releases about 2 tons of fossil co2 per ton of steel while the Swedish one releases about 60kg of bio-sourced co2 per ton steel.
This is why the latter can honestly claim to be the first fossil-free steel in the world and there is nothing stopping the same method from being used in Wales. (concerns about the electricity supply notwithstanding)

 

[ford 7810]

It's not a high horse, I explained in my original post, #26, how your answer in #17 was completely wrong.
Then when you directed me to read #22, I asked you to reread my first post since you had clearly skipped the second paragraph which explains exactly what you got wrong in #22...
Then in #29 you yet again demonstrate that you didn't read any of my previous posts with this little gem:


After I tried to explain again in #30 you reply in #31 wondering how the LKAB demo plant has anything to do with the steel when even way back in my original post it's clearly stated that they make the completely carbon-free sponge iron that is then used to make fossil-free high carbon steel by SSAB.

After this I just concluded that you had to be trolling me on purpose but I still decided to try and summarise things.

And now this

Once again you show that you completely skip past everything I write...

In case anyone else is still reading this the last quote is again wrong, there is no major difference between the two types of steel, one is a high carbon steel made in Wales, the other a high carbon steel made in Luleå. The one made in Wales releases about 2 tons of fossil co2 per ton of steel while the Swedish one releases about 60kg of bio-sourced co2 per ton steel.
This is why the latter can honestly claim to be the first fossil-free steel in the world and there is nothing stopping the same method from being used in Wales. (concerns about the electricity supply notwithstanding)

I’ve read it and understand I think but how do they produce the electricity

 

[Frankzy]

I’ve read it and understand I think but how do they produce the electricity

Our electricity mix has been 100 or at least near 100% renewable since roughly the mid 80s.

 

[renewablejohn]

It's not a high horse, I explained in my original post, #26, how your answer in #17 was completely wrong.
Then when you directed me to read #22, I asked you to reread my first post since you had clearly skipped the second paragraph which explains exactly what you got wrong in #22...
Then in #29 you yet again demonstrate that you didn't read any of my previous posts with this little gem:


After I tried to explain again in #30 you reply in #31 wondering how the LKAB demo plant has anything to do with the steel when even way back in my original post it's clearly stated that they make the completely carbon-free sponge iron that is then used to make fossil-free high carbon steel by SSAB.

After this I just concluded that you had to be trolling me on purpose but I still decided to try and summarise things.

And now this

Once again you show that you completely skip past everything I write...

In case anyone else is still reading this the last quote is again wrong, there is no major difference between the two types of steel, one is a high carbon steel made in Wales, the other a high carbon steel made in Luleå. The one made in Wales releases about 2 tons of fossil co2 per ton of steel while the Swedish one releases about 60kg of bio-sourced co2 per ton steel.
This is why the latter can honestly claim to be the first fossil-free steel in the world and there is nothing stopping the same method from being used in Wales. (concerns about the electricity supply notwithstanding)

I really dont know why I bother.

Read straight from the horses mouth

Timeline for HYBRIT and fossil-free steel

SSAB is committed to minimizing any adverse environmental impacts from our operations. For SSAB, circularity is a key factor in increasing efficiency to help mitigate climate change.

www.ssab.com

SSAB will not even have the pilot plant operational that produces steel equivalent to that produced in Wales until 2025. Its all on the SSAB website you just have to read it.

 

[Frankzy]

I really dont know why I bother.

Read straight from the horses mouth

SSAB will not even have the pilot plant operational that produces steel equivalent to that produced in Wales until 2025. Its all on the SSAB website you just have to read it.

I really don't know what your point is. The pilot plant you talk of is the HYBRIT plant in Gällivare which will produce fossil-free sponge iron at a commercial volume. And the other 2025 item is that Oxelösund will be converting their commercial scale blast furnaces to electric arc furnaces. Both of these are literally under the header Commercial volume plant trials and transformation.

Are you saying that they can't have delivered the world's first fossil-free steel yet because it's not on an industrial scale?
Or are you saying it can't be done on an industrial scale?

 

[renewablejohn]

I really don't know what your point is. The pilot plant you talk of is the HYBRIT plant in Gällivare which will produce fossil-free sponge iron at a commercial volume. And the other 2025 item is that Oxelösund will be converting their commercial scale blast furnaces to electric arc furnaces. Both of these are literally under the header Commercial volume plant trials and transformation.

Are you saying that they can't have delivered the world's first fossil-free steel yet because it's not on an industrial scale?
Or are you saying it can't be done on an industrial scale?

Maybe this graphic explains better the missing link

HYBRIT JV planning to begin building demo plant for fossil-free steel in 2023

SSAB, LKAB and Vattenfall, the partners in the joint venture HYBRIT (earlier post), are preparing for the construction of a demonstration plant for the production of fossil-free steel on an industrial scale. Consultations have begun for deciding on placement of the plant in Norrbotten, Sweden...

www.greencarcongress.com

Yes you have the sponge iron derived using hydrogen but that is not equivalent to blast furnace carbon steel. You talk of biomass injection into the EAF to produce the equivalent high grade carbon steel but no mention anywhere that this is actually being done. What is actually shown in the graphic is sponge iron being charged with recycled scrap to produce the equivalent of blast furnace carbon steel.
I do have a vested interest in the process as I produce torrified wood pellets using only solar energy which could be used to introduce carbon into the sponge iron in an EAF.
The demonstration plant in 2025 is supposed to put this final link in the chain converting sponge iron into the equivalent of blast furnace carbon steel by the introduction of carbon from biomass.