Soil analysis accuracy.

[Cab-over Pete]

You don’t absolutely have to have burnt lime. You just need the best quality ground lime at a decent price and maybe a little more patience.

 

[Global ovine]

I remember hearing a talk by a soil scientist from NZ (@Global ovine would know who I’m talking about) a few years ago who said something very similar. If the pH gets very low then ordinary lime will struggle to lift the values as the aluminium will bind with it preventing it from working. He said that at very low pH’s you need something like burnt lime to over come this. But I don’t think you can get it now.

This was correct. Dr. Rex Dolby (the scientist speaking and contributor of half of the articles in the booklet published by Easyrams, @easyram1) emphasised that the reactive portion of all limes was the calcium carbonate portion (%) which usually increased with hardness of the parent rock. Very soft limes were low whereas marble was pure. However the ability to dissolve in water was the key and marble, unless ground as fine as talcum powder was useless. Therefore the effectiveness of any lime source depends on two factors, the active ingredient (calcium carbonate) and ability to dissolve ready into the soil moisture over a short period.
Rex also said that the age of manufacturing burnt lime has passed, as nowadays we have machinery that is capable of grinding limestone down as far to talcum powder size if the manufacturer wishes.
Warning; not all limes are equal in reactivity, so don't just buy on price per tonne.......do your homework.

 

[Johngee]

This was correct. Dr. Rex Dolby (the scientist speaking and contributor of half of the articles in the booklet published by Easyrams, @easyram1) emphasised that the reactive portion of all limes was the calcium carbonate portion (%) which usually increased with hardness of the parent rock. Very soft limes were low whereas marble was pure. However the ability to dissolve in water was the key and marble, unless ground as fine as talcum powder was useless. Therefore the effectiveness of any lime source depends on two factors, the active ingredient (calcium carbonate) and ability to dissolve ready into the soil moisture over a short period.
Rex also said that the age of manufacturing burnt lime has passed, as nowadays we have machinery that is capable of grinding limestone down as far to talcum powder size if the manufacturer wishes.
Warning; not all limes are equal in reactivity, so don't just buy on price per tonne.......do your homework.

I really enjoyed that meeting. Soil science wasn’t my favourite subject at college but if Dr Rex had been lecturing it would have been a different story

 

[Agrivator]

This was correct. Dr. Rex Dolby (the scientist speaking and contributor of half of the articles in the booklet published by Easyrams, @easyram1) emphasised that the reactive portion of all limes was the calcium carbonate portion (%) which usually increased with hardness of the parent rock. Very soft limes were low whereas marble was pure. However the ability to dissolve in water was the key and marble, unless ground as fine as talcum powder was useless. Therefore the effectiveness of any lime source depends on two factors, the active ingredient (calcium carbonate) and ability to dissolve ready into the soil moisture over a short period.
Rex also said that the age of manufacturing burnt lime has passed, as nowadays we have machinery that is capable of grinding limestone down as far to talcum powder size if the manufacturer wishes.
Warning; not all limes are equal in reactivity, so don't just buy on price per tonne.......do your homework.

And there was me thinking of using an old marble fire-surround to raise the ph of one of my fields. I wonder if your Rex Dolby has thought about inventing a wheel!!!!!

 

[Treg]

Had some fields tested in August 2019 and applied lime @ 2t acre. just had the same fields retested and one that was ph5 has now lifted to 5.5 Which is just what I was expecting it to be. Now the field right next to it similar soil type but a hay field was 5.4 and has retested at 6.4. Is it possible that it could of increased that much in 20 months? Or was the original test wrong or the recent on? There is also a big variation in the P index in the first field and the K index in the second I am aware that time of year and how dry or wet the soil is can alter results but both were done the same time and conditions.

Alot depends on the soil biology, I'd expect a difference of 0.5 in 6 months with no lining.
The biology in each field will be different.

 

[Bogweevil]

Wise people buy their like on published neutralizing value which indicates the amount of basic metal carbonates, calcium or magnesium, in the material. And then on fineness of grinding so our local chalk might have an NV of 50% and I could apply it as lump chalk and my great grandchildren will benefit or I could buy some finely ground stuff and reap benefits sooner. Hydrated lime from the builders merchant has an NV of 70 - has been used as a band dressing for vegetable brassica to suppress clubroot.

 

[wdah/him]

sorry to add another question but, eggshells are 93 % calcuim carbonate, how would they rate do you think. I have used some this spring but it takes about 7 months before effect are shown apparently. the ground needed lime and granular was too dear and ground wasnt allowed becasue too close to house.

sample taken before and intend to do one next spring too

 

[Princess Pooper]

Had some fields tested in August 2019 and applied lime @ 2t acre. just had the same fields retested and one that was ph5 has now lifted to 5.5 Which is just what I was expecting it to be. Now the field right next to it similar soil type but a hay field was 5.4 and has retested at 6.4. Is it possible that it could of increased that much in 20 months? Or was the original test wrong or the recent on? There is also a big variation in the P index in the first field and the K index in the second I am aware that time of year and how dry or wet the soil is can alter results but both were done the same time and conditions.

How were they sampled? The standard 'W' would give far fewer sample points than a GPS sampling from a quad bike or similar by a liming contractor. So, as many fields have some big differences across the field, exactly HOW the sample was taken will make a big difference. We have a 14 acre field that varies from 5.5 to 7.5 (it used to be down at 4.5 in places, resulting in patches of crop failure). The whole field sample came out at '6.1 and the variation was only evident when I did finer scale test tube pH field tests.
Regarding the P and K, if fertiliser or muck containing those nutrients has been applied in the previous 6 months then this can inflate the indices as it won't have moved far down the soil profile.

There are also the different sampling depths and types of sampler (auger/cheese slice) for arable and grassland, which are often ignored.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

sorry to add another question but, eggshells are 93 % calcuim carbonate, how would they rate do you think. I have used some this spring but it takes about 7 months before effect are shown apparently. the ground needed lime and granular was too dear and ground wasnt allowed becasue too close to house.

sample taken before and intend to do one next spring too

Never had any experience of eggshells to be honest. Are they free?
If they are, or well priced, can’t hurt to try.

 

[Purli R]

There's your answer then - top quality ground chalk from a good Lincolnshire outfit

On a more serious note, as said above, the results of soil sampling are only as good as the bloke who took the sample.

They look to have one heck of a big hole there!

 

[yellowbelly]

They look to have one heck of a big hole there!

Yeah, they're a long way from the kilns, can't be all that far short of Race Lane now.

 

[Stw88]

How were they sampled? The standard 'W' would give far fewer sample points than a GPS sampling from a quad bike or similar by a liming contractor. So, as many fields have some big differences across the field, exactly HOW the sample was taken will make a big difference. We have a 14 acre field that varies from 5.5 to 7.5 (it used to be down at 4.5 in places, resulting in patches of crop failure). The whole field sample came out at '6.1 and the variation was only evident when I did finer scale test tube pH field tests.
Regarding the P and K, if fertiliser or muck containing those nutrients has been applied in the previous 6 months then this can inflate the indices as it won't have moved far down the soil profile.

There are also the different sampling depths and types of sampler (auger/cheese slice) for arable and grassland, which are often ignored.

Take my own samples, made a sampling spear that takes a 6inch core. I take plenty samples and zig zag across the field not just the standard W. Bigger the field the more samples I take.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Take my own samples, made a sampling spear that takes a 6inch core. I take plenty samples and zig zag across the field not just the standard W. Bigger the field the more samples I take.

6 inch is to deep here .

 

[Cab-over Pete]

Take my own samples, made a sampling spear that takes a 6inch core. I take plenty samples and zig zag across the field not just the standard W. Bigger the field the more samples I take.

How many separate samples do you take and then send for analysis? ie, one for every 2-3 acres maybe?
And do you keep different soil types separate?

 

[Henarar]

There's your answer then - top quality ground chalk from a good Lincolnshire outfit

On a more serious note, as said above, the results of soil sampling are only as good as the bloke who took the sample.

seriously I think you are right chalk should raise the PH fast

 

[Henarar]

I can’t remember ever seeing a cottage built from chalk.

Beer quarry, under the lime they used for spreading there is some harder stone that they used to cut out great blocks from and it went for building, its still chalk but much harder, I went in the caves down there where they were cutting it out, they go a fair way under the next door farmers field,
you can visit the ones over the road but I haven't been in there http://www.beerquarrycaves.co.uk/

 

[Henarar]

Wise people buy their like on published neutralizing value which indicates the amount of basic metal carbonates, calcium or magnesium, in the material. And then on fineness of grinding so our local chalk might have an NV of 50% and I could apply it as lump chalk and my great grandchildren will benefit or I could buy some finely ground stuff and reap benefits sooner. Hydrated lime from the builders merchant has an NV of 70 - has been used as a band dressing for vegetable brassica to suppress clubroot.

In a field that was worked often I don't think it would be a stupid idea to apply lump chalk if you could get it cheap enough

 

[Cab-over Pete]

Beer quarry, under the lime they used for spreading there is some harder stone that they used to cut out great blocks from and it went for building, its still chalk but much harder, I went in the caves down there where they were cutting it out, they go a fair way under the next door farmers field,
you can visit the ones over the road but I haven't been in there http://www.beerquarrycaves.co.uk/

Been there, got the fridge magnet.

Very interesting place.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

The code of standards is not working for lime or there would be not so much confusion
Needs sorting out
Ban screened lime or lower the sieve spec so its finer and have proper on site inspections