Sole living from sheep ,Flock size

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
Well to start with all ours is National Trust so it's a non starter to do anything to the moorland, also in a National park which I imagine a lot of moorland would be and getting them to agree to subdivision or adding any kind of infrastructure would be an impossible task. Add to that the problem of water access and topography, SSSIs, walkers/horse riders on open access etc etc!
but if the country is starving and short of food, a lot of impossible things suddenly become possible.
 
Let's hope so, there is certainly plenty of scope for improvement on those types of areas but it would take a massive change in thinking from a lot of different organisations and the general public and I can't see that ever happening.
but if the country is starving and short of food, a lot of impossible things suddenly become possible.
 
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exmoor dave

Member
Location
exmoor, uk
why? I was looking at the enclosure agreement for the top of the farm, there was an open hill, that was fenced off and all the farms with grazing rights were given an appropriate amount of fenced ground (just under 50 acres here).


I imagine nearly all moorland is right to roam, so legally it can't be subdivided.

Water sources also typically natural and maybe infrequent, certainly the case on the moor we graze, could install piped systems, but water would almost certainly need to be pumped uphill and big distances (if you could subdivide),
but realistically is the theoretical improvement actually going to provide a ROI.... probably unlikely.



Best investment on a moor.... box of matches and a proper swaling plan
 

Andyt880

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Co. Down
Question for those that don't have sheep as their full income and have to work elsewhere. How do you find the time to do both? Do you work in the day and fit in the sheep on evenings and weekends? Or do you just work a few days a week and can then dedicate the rest of the time to the sheep? Any examples would be much appreciated!
my self and wife both working 8-5 mon-fri away from farming . First generation farmer here but farming is in the family on both sides. 5 years in now to keeping a commercial flock (28 years old) and built up from 0 to keeping approx 150-170 ewes and all land and buildings are rented on a yearly basis. Land rents in the region of £150 Per acre. All sheep away on winter keep from October onwards. Winter keep is anything from 1 acre to 20 acres and none if it is completely fenced, everywhere needs some amount of electric fencing. We do all the checking/fencing/moving on the winter runs. Winter is by far the hardest part. Usually start housing from early January to lambing (late March/april). Lamb 30 ewes at Christmas and 20 in February and target the early lamb market and improve cash flow in the spring time.

If I wasn’t working full time I wouldn’t be where I am today in the farming side of things. A lot of money has been ploughed into it to get up and going. The next aim is to buy a small place with sheds and a few acres etc or at least a good site for putting up a few sheds so that we have the security of a base/yard of our own.
 
I suspect a lot of farmers would be better off if they ran a flying flock of Shetlands put to a terminal every year. Lamb outside in Mar/Apr and sell store at weaning to maximise ewe numbers.
There’s a few in the north that do just that with the draft ewes out of Orkney and Shetland . Like seeing the Shetland ewes running with a pair of lambs that are bigger than her .
 
my self and wife both working 8-5 mon-fri away from farming . First generation farmer here but farming is in the family on both sides. 5 years in now to keeping a commercial flock (28 years old) and built up from 0 to keeping approx 150-170 ewes and all land and buildings are rented on a yearly basis. Land rents in the region of £150 Per acre. All sheep away on winter keep from October onwards. Winter keep is anything from 1 acre to 20 acres and none if it is completely fenced, everywhere needs some amount of electric fencing. We do all the checking/fencing/moving on the winter runs. Winter is by far the hardest part. Usually start housing from early January to lambing (late March/april). Lamb 30 ewes at Christmas and 20 in February and target the early lamb market and improve cash flow in the spring time.

If I wasn’t working full time I wouldn’t be where I am today in the farming side of things. A lot of money has been ploughed into it to get up and going. The next aim is to buy a small place with sheds and a few acres etc or at least a good site for putting up a few sheds so that we have the security of a base/yard of our own.

Fair play and well done you. I had a family farm as a base when I took over but have managed to increase sheep numbers from 300 to 1,200 over the past 20 years. Lots of hard work but hopefully starts paying off soon. The trouble with expanding constantly is that it takes a drain on the finances! More sheep, staff to pay and more equipment needed!
 

Andyt880

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Co. Down
Fair play and well done you. I had a family farm as a base when I took over but have managed to increase sheep numbers from 300 to 1,200 over the past 20 years. Lots of hard work but hopefully starts paying off soon. The trouble with expanding constantly is that it takes a drain on the finances! More sheep, staff to pay and more equipment needed!
Thanks. We are at the stage now where it is near enough self sustaining whilst still expanding and improving efficiency etc. We certainly aren’t getting any money out of it into our pockets so far but we have a small business worth a nice few thousand at least
 
I like having time off. I like hunting, going out with my dogs, seeing friends and spending time with my Mrs. I like going to gigs, the cinema, our for dinner etc.

I farm because it was a way for me, with at the start, low capital and not much of anything else, to build a buisness where I could spend my time outside and be my own boss.

Now I have the buisness, my main aim is to make the money I need to, whilst spending as little time as possible messing about with sheep, and as much time as I can doing the things I enjoy. Whilst obviously advancing the buisness when and if I can.
 

Boso

Member
my self and wife both working 8-5 mon-fri away from farming . First generation farmer here but farming is in the family on both sides. 5 years in now to keeping a commercial flock (28 years old) and built up from 0 to keeping approx 150-170 ewes and all land and buildings are rented on a yearly basis. Land rents in the region of £150 Per acre. All sheep away on winter keep from October onwards. Winter keep is anything from 1 acre to 20 acres and none if it is completely fenced, everywhere needs some amount of electric fencing. We do all the checking/fencing/moving on the winter runs. Winter is by far the hardest part. Usually start housing from early January to lambing (late March/april). Lamb 30 ewes at Christmas and 20 in February and target the early lamb market and improve cash flow in the spring time.

If I wasn’t working full time I wouldn’t be where I am today in the farming side of things. A lot of money has been ploughed into it to get up and going. The next aim is to buy a small place with sheds and a few acres etc or at least a good site for putting up a few sheds so that we have the security of a base/yard of our own.
Same here, both full time. One child, second one on the way.
Building a new house this year and two (100m2) sheds in the last few years.
No farming background family wise, been farming since 2013 myself, in sheep since 2016.
Started with 10 ewes now up to +-160. Would like to expand to 500 ewes within the next few years.
Land rents are €750-1000 per ha in my region.

Take care of the sheep before or after work, headtorch is a must. Saturdays are to put up fencing and take it down.
Investing in every possible substantial time saving equipment or genetics are a must as well. To prevent lambing problems I use charmoise or dutch texel/beltex on everything apart from the best few ewes which I breed pure to get more shedders.

However like you said, without a fulltime job would not be able to invest as much as I have done.
Best thing I have done, biggest timesaver imho, is to run just one flock. Used to have a few sheep here and a few there. Which ads up to massive miles and time on the road. Now I have all of them together. (Apart from ram lambs from the moment they might breed something I don't want)
 

Andyt880

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Co. Down
Same here, both full time. One child, second one on the way.
Building a new house this year and two (100m2) sheds in the last few years.
No farming background family wise, been farming since 2013 myself, in sheep since 2016.
Started with 10 ewes now up to +-160. Would like to expand to 500 ewes within the next few years.
Land rents are €750-1000 per ha in my region.

Take care of the sheep before or after work, headtorch is a must. Saturdays are to put up fencing and take it down.
Investing in every possible substantial time saving equipment or genetics are a must as well. To prevent lambing problems I use charmoise or dutch texel/beltex on everything apart from the best few ewes which I breed pure to get more shedders.

However like you said, without a fulltime job would not be able to invest as much as I have done.
Best thing I have done, biggest timesaver imho, is to run just one flock. Used to have a few sheep here and a few there. Which ads up to massive miles and time on the road. Now I have all of them together. (Apart from ram lambs from the moment they might breed something I don't want)
What part of the world are you in @Boso?
It’s not a simple job starting from nothing
 

BAF

Member
Livestock Farmer
Question for those that don't have sheep as their full income and have to work elsewhere. How do you find the time to do both? Do you work in the day and fit in the sheep on evenings and weekends? Or do you just work a few days a week and can then dedicate the rest of the time to the sheep? Any examples would be much appreciated!
Early mornings, late nights. Most of the time everything fits around work just lambing can be a pain in the arse. We're short on shed space and ground which means I end up lambing ewe lambs after I've lambed the main flock so I've got somewhere to put them! So lambing can drag a bit.
I was all done in 6 weeks this time bar 6 stragglers that don't want to lamb! But I've bought them home and i can see them out of the kitchen window. There's no shed space here - I've got cade lambs in the log shed - but the pig ark is empty so any of them start being terrible teen mothers they're getting chucked in the pig pen! Our ground is away, only 5 minutes but it soon adds up running back and forth plus there's no electricity down there. So it's all head torches and car head lights.
I do 2 afternoons a week playing with dairy cows and I'm assistant manager on a ~200,000 bird broiler farm as well as being chief child rearer whilst the wife goes to her office job.
Ones 15 and ones 3, I inherited the 15yr old with the wife and she has bouts of handiness and more prolonged bouts of Kevin ness - the teenager not the wife - There's only 2 things I do wrong in the eyes of the teenager at the minute; everything I do and everything I say! The 3yr old is mad keen to help which is great mostly, she was feeding our good tup quavers the other evening whilst mummy was in charge. She has ended up quite smurf like after getting hold of a blue marker crayon in the summer and the rolled barley can be a bit like confetti.
The chickens fit in well around the school run, I'm usually here to pick them up and 2 days a week I can drop them off.
I'm also thinking about making a return to race riding so I'll be squeezing in a couple of hours riding out on as many days as I can.
I'm also trying to piece together a cook book, I cook and eat a lot of game and we substitute beef for venison all the time. And I'm trying to keep writing and collating Clarksonesque stories of my life that are quite funny and once I've got enough again make that into a book.
Do I make any money? Not as much as I would working in macdonalds! The bank balance is perpetually low, the kids are perpetually expensive and I'm perpetually knackered! But there are moments like yesterday when I was feeding the ewes and looking at the lambs, the sun was bright and I had a hot cup of coffee and saw a glimmer of potential in a couple of the pedigrees and it all feels worth while. Then I spent 10 minutes chasing a barsteward torwen back onto the top because she'd bolted through a 6 inch gap in the gate as I was trying to go out of the field.
 
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Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
From my experience so far, an employed shepherd on an 800 ewe flock is a dead end job. £25-30k plus house and truck. With exception of lambing help, they aren't going to use contractors. And even then, lambing assistance will be £10/hr vet students or similar.

The 8,000 ewe flock will have a team of shepherds, probably 2 senior shepherds and then a flock manger. There is a career structure and opportunities for advancement. They're also more likely to use contractors on a proper day rate.

Same as when I winter tack sheep. I started with 10+ customers and small mobs of sheep all over the county. I've now streamlined it and work exclusively with 1 customer. He sends me as many sheep as I want and they can all run in 1 mob. Much more efficient use of time.

As ever, secure access to land is the challenge. Removal of BPS is helping to focus landowner minds, and opening up opportunities on sub optimal cropping land, winter cover crops etc.

Thanks for the comprehensive response.

"Removal of BPS is helping to focus landowner minds, and opening up opportunities on sub optimal cropping land, winter cover crops etc."

but I rather fear that ELMS as it stands, will make every other opportunity more attractive than providing grazing.
This is why I suggested that there should be a headage payment connected to environmental options such that landowners have an incentive to provide land for all the shepherds that rely on renting ground.
 

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