Some inspiration from S America

[shakerator]

An extremely diverse range. Everthing from fruit, nuts, timber to fertility trees, living fenceposts, medicinal and herbage trees for cattle. Even xmas trees. The sky's the limit. You can sell mistletoe for £3 a sprig. The point is as farmers we are sitting on an asset we barely exploit selling wheat at a fraction over the cost of production when there are so many other things people want that will grow with no purchased inputs at all in a perennial system which constantly increases in diversity, complexity, wildlife, beauty and yes potential revenue streams. Packaging all this up in the right way is the trick and I'm not there yet. It might be impossible, but I'm hoping to give it a go. Basically the system would be based around silvopasture and permaculture ideas.

Hundreds of staff! Paid in kind hopefully !

 

[Hartwig]

Trees might change the microclimate in that part of the world positively when shading from the high-energy sunlight and protecting from hot and dry winds nearly all year round so the cooler microclimate under the trees canopy makes many other plants thrive there where they would just be burnt without trees around.

Here in my rather scottish climate I simply cannot see that trees would be any good unless you want to produce wood. We have lots of hedges and smaller forests around and the arable yield (and pasture too) always drops nearby any trees. Here it`s cool and wet and sunlight is the limiting factor for yield, so anything that makes a shade is negative.
I`m not saying that arable monoculture deserts are good !! We need diversification and hedges and forests are generally good for environment as to some degree to our fields, but I cannot see something like an agroforest being any good here.

Here where it is cool, wet and dark I see that forests with mixed tree-species are doing really good for producing wood, pastures are really good for producing grass (mixed with legumes and herbs maybe more effective !?) but I can`t see one of both being mixed with our common arable crops being any better than in monoculture - a copy of the south-american inspiration needs some real changes to be successful here. Maybe growing our arable crops in companion with legumes, growing mixed crops (peola, oats and peas, etc.) on fields several hectares big surrounded by hedges and some forests and pastures here and there would lead to more productive results and be something like syntrophy as well ??

 

[martian]

Trees might change the microclimate in that part of the world positively when shading from the high-energy sunlight and protecting from hot and dry winds nearly all year round so the cooler microclimate under the trees canopy makes many other plants thrive there where they would just be burnt without trees around.

Here in my rather scottish climate I simply cannot see that trees would be any good unless you want to produce wood. We have lots of hedges and smaller forests around and the arable yield (and pasture too) always drops nearby any trees. Here it`s cool and wet and sunlight is the limiting factor for yield, so anything that makes a shade is negative.
I`m not saying that arable monoculture deserts are good !! We need diversification and hedges and forests are generally good for environment as to some degree to our fields, but I cannot see something like an agroforest being any good here.

Here where it is cool, wet and dark I see that forests with mixed tree-species are doing really good for producing wood, pastures are really good for producing grass (mixed with legumes and herbs maybe more effective !?) but I can`t see one of both being mixed with our common arable crops being any better than in monoculture - a copy of the south-american inspiration needs some real changes to be successful here. Maybe growing our arable crops in companion with legumes, growing mixed crops (peola, oats and peas, etc.) on fields several hectares big surrounded by hedges and some forests and pastures here and there would lead to more productive results and be something like syntrophy as well ??

You may well be right there, Hartwig. However, walking about today on the frost, there was a notable change in micro-climate wherever there was a tree and in the woods it seems several degrees warmer than outside. In summer the position is reversed, not least because the process of photosynthesis takes heat from the surrounding atmosphere and there's a lot more going on in the temple of a wood (as well as simple shading of course).

I was thinking more trees in permanent pasture would be a good idea, especially if a lot of pruning goes on (there's nothing cattle like more than browsing a few leaves). Then I was surprised to see Joel Salatin cutting hedgerow trees down next to his pastures, as he didn't like the cattle to congregate there and over-fertilise one spot instead of evenly crapping over the whole field. Then, he chips all those branches and leaves etc as a base for his compost. Now there's a good use for your trees...

 

[EchoesFromThePast]

Plant MORE hedges and trees so that the cattle can munch more natural healthy and diverse food as it was used to do for millennia instead of relying only of mono grass culture.
Ask your forefathers and your cattle.
Ever seen cattle happily consum tree leaves and twigs, shoots etc. if they only had access to it?

Joel Salatin promotes a bacterial dominated soil.
http://stiftung-france.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=667&sid=d7ec68adfa17fecd283eaf49b084d0fa
You can prove it for yourself if you have a microscope - which every farmer should have who can afford a tractor and a plow.

 

[Jim Bullock]

Plant MORE hedges and trees so that the cattle can munch more natural healthy and diverse food as it was used to do for millennia instead of relying only of mono grass culture.
Ask your forefathers and your cattle.
Ever seen cattle happily consum tree leaves and twigs, shoots etc. if they only had access to it?

Joel Salatin promotes a bacterial dominated soil.
http://stiftung-france.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=667&sid=d7ec68adfa17fecd283eaf49b084d0fa
You can prove it for yourself if you have a microscope - which every farmer should have who can afford a tractor and a plow.

EchoesFromthe Past...are you a microscope dealer? I am looking at buying a soil microscope (as a hobby) and the more I look at what is available the more confused I become. Why can I buy something in the US for about $300(£210) yet the same thing in the UK is about £700..?

 

[Tim May]

My cousin brought me Creating a forest Garden, ~ working with nature to grow edible crops By Martin Crawford, it does give a really useful insight into this sortof thing in a UK context, dealing with Harwigs concerns especially.

 

[mikep]

I am a terrible sceptic about some things and mixing trees and arable may have some unintended consequences witness this year.

Even allowing for a six metre bunny hugging strip the tree roots are reducing autumn growth in a circle at least twenty metres into the field. I know the trees are not trained or pruned but it does show that in a battle for resources the trees will win.

 

[Feldspar]

I am a terrible sceptic about some things and mixing trees and arable may have some unintended consequences witness this year.View attachment 430112
Even allowing for a six metre bunny hugging strip the tree roots are reducing autumn growth in a circle at least twenty metres into the field. I know the trees are not trained or pruned but it does show that in a battle for resources the trees will win.

In a wet year we see the reverse effect.

 

[mikep]

In a wet year we see the reverse effect.

True but in spring the soil under trees takes longer to dry so at both ends of the season at planting time they can be quite a factor that has to be considered
I think like most it is a solution to a specific problem in a specific area. In Surrey you don't need extra trees but in the flatter more open areas it may have some mileage. Trees are hosts to many pests and parasites as well so you may be bringing the curse of gout fly in or increased flea beetle or aphids you may build up increased predation to help but it is often hit or miss. Microclimates have their place but it is not a panacea or we would never have moved away from them in the first place.

 

[Philip Hedeng]

I watched a presentation from Mark Shepard, where he noted that competitive effect of tree/bush-roots on alley crops unless you put a sub-soiler leg through along the row every year or so, to cut of roots going into the alley crop.

 

[4course]

really interesting video that, bit of a lightbulb moment when they mention pruning increasing biological activity of roots ! Is this explanation of the "golden hoof" that livestock being beyond the soluble nutrition the alos produce ? ie grazing = pruning = more biomass and root biological production ?

even happier my sheep are half eating cover crops now !

 

[4course]

dont know what happened reply went before posted still thats the main reason dont do internet banking however back to post
isnt pruning topping just the same as what weve been doing for years early grazing grass and occasionally running them over wheat or rolling/harrowing

 

[Old McDonald]

Not sure quite how we can use these ideas, but here's a 15 minute film which should cheer up the most miserable farmer:

I struggled a wee bit to follow the video. It took me a while to work out that "Ernst" was a foreigner speaking Brazillian Portuguese and not Spanish. I am not really fluent in Portuguese so had to follow the subtitles rather than watch the film for a lot of the time. Brazillian Portuguese is not the same as genuine Portuguese.

Despite all that I found it very interesting, but I very much doubt anyone could hope to emulate the system in the UK. There is nothing new in it of course. Paulownia trees have been grown this way (at wider row spacing I think) for a long time in China. The same goes for olive groves. Growing veg amongst the olive trees is as old as growing the olives. I have grown crops in the rows myself. Maize, cucurbits, beans and cowpeas. I will, in time, grow grazing for livestock. That will provide much of the natural pruning.

one of the reasons mob grazing works so much better at feeding the soil than grazing animals under a set stocking regime: the grazed plants lose interest in putting too much into the soil when they are constantly being nibbled, compared with beng allowed to grow up tall and then attacked.

Do sensible farmers set stock on land that is capable of being rotationally grazed? Rotational grazing has been practised since before I was born on suitable land. Not all land can be treated this way and there are vast acreages that have to be set stocked - so no disrespect to those that have no option.

When you walk into a conventional field of wheat, you get the feeling that without regular spraying and fertilising, the whole lot would die;

Really? I find that difficult to believe. I have never, ever experienced such a feeling, and I have been in a lot of conventional cereal fields.

Christmas trees a possibility, I suppose. Do they need pruning?

Yes, they do.

So what sort of trees are going to plant Dan?

Definitely not Eucalypts as was mentioned in the film. I once had 1200 acres of them as part of a farm I bought. I am surrounded now by smaller plantations. Nothing grows under Eucalypts. They suck every last morsel of feed and moisture out of the ground. Rainforest areas will be different. But, whilst some species will grow and thrive in the UK, do not even think about it.

Plant MORE hedges and trees so that the cattle can munch more natural healthy and diverse food as it was used to do for millennia instead of relying only of mono grass culture.
Ask your forefathers and your cattle.
Ever seen cattle happily consum tree leaves and twigs, shoots etc. if they only had access to it

Yes, I have. There have been times in the past when all I could offer my stock was tree leaves and twigs. At best some survive on them, at worst they die. Nothing grows on as it should. Cattle are not natural browsers. Sheep are grazers that will browse occasionally, and goats are browsers that will graze frequently. I have owned all three species in quite large numbers over several decades.

I am a terrible sceptic about some things and mixing trees and arable may have some unintended consequences witness this year.View attachment 430112

Even allowing for a six metre bunny hugging strip the tree roots are reducing autumn growth in a circle at least twenty metres into the field. I know the trees are not trained or pruned but it does show that in a battle for resources the trees will win.

Spot on. Trees, and shrubs such as grape vines, are heavy feeders, and it does not matter whether or not they are pruned. My crop growing mentioned above only lasted two years. I knew that the trees would remove too much from the soil to permit a reasonable crop after that. I did try a reduce width along a few of the rows in the third year as an experiment, but it was not economic.

isnt pruning topping just the same as what weve been doing for years early grazing grass and occasionally running them over wheat or rolling/harrowing

Yes. One thing that struck me about the video was a suggestion that by pruning it was possible to fertilise the soil just by returning the prunings. Not so. I have seen similar suggestions elsewhere. None of these places which sugggest it is not necessary to import nutrients (either by way of fertilisers, or animal feed) ever produce soil tests to show that they are not diminshing any soil macro or micro nutrients, or lowering the pH. It is easy to increase the OM, but that is not the be all and end all of soil fertility.

 

[Old McDonald]

I watched a presentation from Mark Shepard, where he noted that competitive effect of tree/bush-roots on alley crops unless you put a sub-soiler leg through along the row every year or so, to cut of roots going into the alley crop.

Apologies. I missed quoting you in my response. That is exactly what happens, and why I ceased cropping amongst my trees. You can have either one good crop, or two bad ones. Two bad ones are likely to lose money on both.

 

[The Ruminant]

Not sure quite how we can use these ideas, but here's a 15 minute film which should cheer up the most miserable farmer:

Well it didn't cheer up @Old McDonald .....

 

[Old McDonald]

Well it didn't cheer up @Old McDonald .....

That could be because I am a cheerful optimist and so already cheered up.

Seriously, when you have spent as much time as I have following world-wide agricultural practices and innovations there is very little that is inspirational. Invariably somebody, somewhere has done it all before. I still spend whatever time I have available (usually on the computer) reading research papers and watching YouTube videos and in recent years have found a few useful mechanical aid ideas. Nobody is ever too old to learn.

It is very important for everyone to bear in mind the climatic conditions under which many systems are practiced by those who try to encourage others to follow them.

 

[Hartwig]

It is very important for everyone to bear in mind the climatic conditions under which many systems are practiced by those who try to encourage others to follow them.

Perfectly said !! I had to learn it the hard way....

There are many places on the world where too much temperature and/or too much sunlight is the problem and reducing biological activity - if you find a way to reduce temperature in the soil (by loads of residue) and shade the soil/plants (by planting trees) you can boost biology and yields for sure.

On my farm I have basically too low temperature and too low sunshine in 9 from 12 month to make the biology work properly, so too much residue and every single tree will make it worse and you can spot every bigger tree in the hedges on the yield-map !! Here the biggest problem is too much rain at times reducing (drowning) the biology, I need to find a way to get rid of the moisture at many times !!

But: priciples are universal, solutions are local !! That`s still correct and certainly proofs that it can`t work at all to copy solutions from south america when I have totally different problems - took me nearly 10 years and a LOT of money to realize. Still searching for the right solution though.....

 

[SilliamWhale]

Perfectly said !! I had to learn it the hard way....

There are many places on the world where too much temperature and/or too much sunlight is the problem and reducing biological activity - if you find a way to reduce temperature in the soil (by loads of residue) and shade the soil/plants (by planting trees) you can boost biology and yields for sure.

On my farm I have basically too low temperature and too low sunshine in 9 from 12 month to make the biology work properly, so too much residue and every single tree will make it worse and you can spot every bigger tree in the hedges on the yield-map !! Here the biggest problem is too much rain at times reducing (drowning) the biology, I need to find a way to get rid of the moisture at many times !!

But: priciples are universal, solutions are local !! That`s still correct and certainly proofs that it can`t work at all to copy solutions from south america when I have totally different problems - took me nearly 10 years and a LOT of money to realize. Still searching for the right solution though.....

You need to bale some straw!

 

[The Ruminant]

That could be because I am a cheerful optimist and so already cheered up.

Seriously, when you have spent as much time as I have following world-wide agricultural practices and innovations there is very little that is inspirational. Invariably somebody, somewhere has done it all before. I still spend whatever time I have available (usually on the computer) reading research papers and watching YouTube videos and in recent years have found a few useful mechanical aid ideas. Nobody is ever too old to learn.

It is very important for everyone to bear in mind the climatic conditions under which many systems are practiced by those who try to encourage others to follow them.

Out of interest, have you visited Martyn Wolfe at Wakelyns Farm? Or Steve Briggs at Peterborough? Both these guys are combining profit-yielding trees and combinable crops and seem to be making it work (although I'll admit I've not seen Wakelyns, but have been to Steve's place).

I know you've an enquiring mind, maybe you ought to take a look and see how they're managing things

 

[The Ruminant]

But: priciples are universal, solutions are local !!

I'd agree with this but I'd also suggest you revisit the video. It says you need to understand the succession vegetation in your particular environment and then work hand in hand with nature to replicate it whilst generating profits. This is the principle and as you say your local solution will be different from mine which, in turn, will be different from Old Mac's