SOP AGM.

[arcobob]

Hi Sprayer thousands of national bodies and organisations run by unpaid volunteers, the paid employed staff at sop is just part of the gravy train.

I don't see any harm in reimbursement of expenses - phones postage printing and the like as long as its agreed and properly accounted for.

don see any need for a grand ltd companies - directors or any other fancy titles

yes lots to discuss and ponder that's the beauty of a blank start you can make it go in the direction that the members want it to go. exactly the opposite to what they have at the moment.

The problem with too many key unpaid staff is that they start to feel that they have a right to put hands in the till and pay themselves

Ireland is divided and classed as two separate countries. Is having a Border not a clue?

So, at the time was Germany, but they were allowed only one entrant.
That was in response to the Welsh and Scotts forming their own national organisations.As they now sent their own men to the world, many felt there was no place for them at the" English" national, and that they were there was potentially keeping two English ploughmen out of the plough off.The SOP replied that as it was the British national, they had the right to attend, competing for the British championship.What they didnt do, was to put two more places in the plough off, which would have removed the bone of contention.
The world lot have a great influence on the rule book,separate points for straightness( Thats a joke, something is either straight or bent,!) the start from one end rule, style of finish. I expect there are more, if we were to look.[/QUOTE]

. Who is on the World committee and who concocts their stupid rules?

 

[Dealer]

Who is on the World committee and who concocts their stupid rules?

http://worldploughing.org/

 

[Howard150]

My first post this morning was directed to the collective. My second post was a reply to you and I said “some people “ not “you”.
Sorry if it was misinterpreted - not looking for a fight. Just making clear my opinions on what an alternative SOP should be about as an Ex rev ploughman who would be most likely to return as a vintage ploughman if it ever happened. It just occurred to me that it could turn out to be a very hypocritical affair if you start selecting who can join

Accepted. As in all things a battle between allies is ultimately without a winner.

A very pertinent question is “would World Style ploughmen want to be part of a splinter group” rather than “would that splinter group be prepared to have them”

 

[ploughman1963]

Accepted. As in all things a battle between allies is ultimately without a winner.

A very pertinent question is “would World Style ploughmen want to be part of a splinter group” rather than “would that splinter group be prepared to have them”

I believe many would - hence my concern . There’s are a great number of world style men who share (and voiced) the concerns expressed here over the last few years

 

[Ley253]

What is evident from all the above, is no one has asked why the vintage classes are deemed second rate, or established that in act they are. So, here are a few facts that many wont like, but are true, none the less.
One,Only when vintage ,classic et al, have a world championship can they justly claim equal status with those classes that do.
Two, The much maligned SOP are the only world members who have put on such a class,going so far as to arrange and transport kit for overseas competitors.
Three, there is much more work involved in arranging the other classes than there is in World style for a start, there are many more of them.
Four, Vintage is dying. Trailer ploughs are a good example.Most vintage ploughmen use equipment current during their younger days, and, stepping onto a Fordson "N" or "Case, takes them back to a much kinder, more gentle age. Younger people dont have that nostalgia to draw on, they are also from an age where old is to be dumped asap.

 

[Howard150]

What is evident from all the above, is no one has asked why the vintage classes are deemed second rate, or established that in act they are. So, here are a few facts that many wont like, but are true, none the less.
One,Only when vintage ,classic et al, have a world championship can they justly claim equal status with those classes that do.
Two, The much maligned SOP are the only world members who have put on such a class,going so far as to arrange and transport kit for overseas competitors.
Three, there is much more work involved in arranging the other classes than there is in World style for a start, there are many more of them.
Four, Vintage is dying. Trailer ploughs are a good example.Most vintage ploughmen use equipment current during their younger days, and, stepping onto a Fordson "N" or "Case, takes them back to a much kinder, more gentle age. Younger people dont have that nostalgia to draw on, they are also from an age where old is to be dumped asap.

There is TV program living under the name Pointless where the theme is to give pointless answers - if you get my general drift.

As far as establishing that the scruffy classes are deemed second rate - look no further than Lichfield. Did the WS have plots you could not walk on let alone plough? Did the machinery demonstrators have plots you could not walk on let alone plough? The list is endless.

There will never be a vintage world championship. Pointless to compare the standing of Vintage / Classic alongside world. What you would be advised to do is look at the contribution made over the years by vintage factions rather than World Style and the return got for each. A simple analogy would be WS and vintage queuing at Costa for a coffee, both paying a tenner with the WS guy expecting coffee and a sandwich whilst the poor relation only gets a coffee which has to be consumed out the back rather that sat in the best seat. Attributing levels of status is not just snobbery but an insult to vintage ploughmen, many of whom possess skill sets far in advance of some WS ploughmen.

Putting on such a class as World Vintage - in the eyes of many another pointless exercise.

Pointless again Aitch. The vintage contribution far far outweighs that of the world stylers. Lest you forgot Aitch, there is no prize money, administration costs must be more than well met.

Pointless again Aitch to declare the vintage as dying before looking at the dearth of World Style competitors. Lucky to get 20 at York. Your non arrival at Flint reduced the class by 33.33%

 

[arcobob]

I am afraid that acrimony will arise when a member or members of thew SOP executive plus their supporters and allies are excluded from any involvement with a new society. This is no more or less than any of them could expect but opens up another can of worms. I for one would walk away from any organisation that supported their inclusion and so would many others.
Who lays down the guidelines and draws up the list of guilty?

 

[ploughman1963]

Well it seems what I feared is a reality- the blame is being squarely laid at the the door of WS (and reversible) ploughmen rather than the organisation that was responsible for any difference in the way the classes are treated. As ploughmen, we turn up and plough - although some of us tried to get things changed to make these better and have all classes and all PLOUGHMEN treated the same. You are no better than those you despise

 

[arcobob]

Well it seems what I feared is a reality- the blame is being squarely laid at the the door of WS (and reversible) ploughmen rather than the organisation that was responsible for any difference in the way the classes are treated. As ploughmen, we turn up and plough - although some of us tried to get things changed to make these better and have all classes and all PLOUGHMEN treated the same. You are no better than those you despise

If this remark is laid at my door you may have noticed that I have not named names or their ploughing affiliations.

 

[ploughman1963]

I referred to the previous two posts, one of which is yours. I interpreted your comment to mean that you would not accept WS ploughmen in any new society- if I misunderstood you, I apologise

 

[arcobob]

There is TV program living under the name Pointless where the theme is to give pointless answers - if you get my general drift.

As far as establishing that the scruffy classes are deemed second rate - look no further than Lichfield. Did the WS have plots you could not walk on let alone plough? Did the machinery demonstrators have plots you could not walk on let alone plough? The list is endless.

There will never be a vintage world championship. Pointless to compare the standing of Vintage / Classic alongside world. What you would be advised to do is look at the contribution made over the years by vintage factions rather than World Style and the return got for each. A simple analogy would be WS and vintage queuing at Costa for a coffee, both paying a tenner with the WS guy expecting coffee and a sandwich whilst the poor relation only gets a coffee which has to be consumed out the back rather that sat in the best seat. Attributing levels of status is not just snobbery but an insult to vintage ploughmen, many of whom possess skill sets far in advance of some WS ploughmen.

Putting on such a class as World Vintage - in the eyes of many another pointless exercise.

Pointless again Aitch. The vintage contribution far far outweighs that of the world stylers. Lest you forgot Aitch, there is no prize money, administration costs must be more than well met.

Pointless again Aitch to declare the vintage as dying before looking at the dearth of World Style competitors. Lucky to get 20 at York. Your non arrival at Flint reduced the class by 33.33%

In the eastern counties I have not seen one senior world style ploughman perform in recent years and in Cambs there is one reversible ploughman. The joke is always that he comes first second and third at every match. This would indicate that the demand for world classes is virtually non existant and would not be an imposition on a local eastern counties organiser but merely an irritation.

 

[Ley253]

There is TV program living under the name Pointless where the theme is to give pointless answers - if you get my general drift.

As far as establishing that the scruffy classes are deemed second rate - look no further than Lichfield. Did the WS have plots you could not walk on let alone plough? Did the machinery demonstrators have plots you could not walk on let alone plough? The list is endless.

There will never be a vintage world championship. Pointless to compare the standing of Vintage / Classic alongside world. What you would be advised to do is look at the contribution made over the years by vintage factions rather than World Style and the return got for each. A simple analogy would be WS and vintage queuing at Costa for a coffee, both paying a tenner with the WS guy expecting coffee and a sandwich whilst the poor relation only gets a coffee which has to be consumed out the back rather that sat in the best seat. Attributing levels of status is not just snobbery but an insult to vintage ploughmen, many of whom possess skill sets far in advance of some WS ploughmen.

Putting on such a class as World Vintage - in the eyes of many another pointless exercise.

Pointless again Aitch. The vintage contribution far far outweighs that of the world stylers. Lest you forgot Aitch, there is no prize money, administration costs must be more than well met.

Pointless again Aitch to declare the vintage as dying before looking at the dearth of World Style competitors. Lucky to get 20 at York. Your non arrival at Flint reduced the class by 33.33%

I was not at lichfield, so cant answer.
Contributions? Oh yes indeed! I called them Sponsorship when I reminded people of the "Unhappiness" on the forum caused by the hyd class entry fees being in part used to pay the trailer class prize money! Will the majority classes now be happy to fund the minority, as the name has changed? I doubt it.
The inescapable fact is that the vintage classes have been riven with jealousy since their inception At first all was well, it comprised of trailer ploughs. Then some people started winning more than once, the cry went up that their kit was illegal, boards too long.We now had two trailer classes. Then hyd ploughs joined in competing with similar bodied trailer ploughs. Fine till the hyd boys found the going a bit hard, then trailer ploughs were illegal! At Morton in The Marsh match trailer ploughs were banned on the day, even though all plough details had been agreed before hand! (In the end, to their credit the organisers put in a class for us). Then along came high cut, another class.Now we have classic, the final throw of the dice? Perhaps.
It is ironic that the SOP has managed to unite this sack of ferrets, if for all the wrong reasons!
Ok, World style is dying, together with all match ploughing, feel better? Makes no change to the fact that trailer ploughs, which started it all, are now in very low numbers. Hyd and classic will surely follow.World style, is the F1 of ploughing, and life at the top is hard, and the climb to that status beyond many. You quote Flint its in an area of high ploughing standards, but only two turned up,( I couldnt, lorry and weather) there are many more world style ploughs than that in the area, but the owners stayed at home, perhaps they felt the bar was too high to start with? Chichester, in contrast had around six, the standard, and knowledge in the area is lower, but more felt they had a chance.
There will never be a vintage world championship. Why then should the SOP, which exists to support the world ploughing championship, expend finance and effort on running events for classes with no championship status? But, it does, and by doing so spends much of its time picking one boot or another from its teeth! Having said that, I agree its not perfect, but there is an inclination to listen, the new handling rule is a case in point.

 

[arcobob]

I referred to the previous two posts, one of which is yours. I interpreted your comment to mean that you would not accept WS ploughmen in any new society- if I misunderstood you, I apologise

Thank you for your honest apology Colin. I try hard not to tar everyone with the same brush but sadly the main perpetrators of wrong emanate from the World disciplines. Your sensitivity is understandable and I apologise if I have upset you. We need people of your experience on board.

 

[arcobob]

I was not at lichfield, so cant answer.
Contributions? Oh yes indeed! I called them Sponsorship when I reminded people of the "Unhappiness" on the forum caused by the hyd class entry fees being in part used to pay the trailer class prize money! Will the majority classes now be happy to fund the minority, as the name has changed? I doubt it.
The inescapable fact is that the vintage classes have been riven with jealousy since their inception At first all was well, it comprised of trailer ploughs. Then some people started winning more than once, the cry went up that their kit was illegal, boards too long.We now had two trailer classes. Then hyd ploughs joined in competing with similar bodied trailer ploughs. Fine till the hyd boys found the going a bit hard, then trailer ploughs were illegal! At Morton in The Marsh match trailer ploughs were banned on the day, even though all plough details had been agreed before hand! (In the end, to their credit the organisers put in a class for us). Then along came high cut, another class.Now we have classic, the final throw of the dice? Perhaps.
It is ironic that the SOP has managed to unite this sack of ferrets, if for all the wrong reasons!
Ok, World style is dying, together with all match ploughing, feel better? Makes no change to the fact that trailer ploughs, which started it all, are now in very low numbers.World style, is the F1 of ploughing, and life at the top is hard, and the climb to that status beyond many. You quote Flint its in an area of high ploughing standards, but only two turned up,( I couldnt, lorry and weather) there are many more world style ploughs than that in the area, but the owners stayed at home, perhaps they felt the bar was too high to start with? Chichester, in contrast had around six, the standard, and knowledge in the area is lower, but more felt they had a chance.
There will never be a vintage world championship. Why then should the SOP, which exists to support the world ploughing championship, expend finance and effort on running events for classes with no championship status? But, it does, and by doing so spends much of its time picking one boot or another from its teeth!

I agree with much of what you have said including your final paragraph to which you expect an answer. Here it is MONEY.

 

[Ley253]

I agree with much of what you have said including your final paragraph to which you expect an answer. Here it is MONEY.

I dont quite follow you there, forgive me, but I have yet to see the any SOP member demanding cash at knife, or gunpoint. Or do you mean the money spent on organising qualifiers, Societies have to be contacted, score sheets printed. But Hey, are you not complaining about the vintage "contributions" going in part to support world style!

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

I am afraid that acrimony will arise when a member or members of thew SOP executive plus their supporters and allies are excluded from any involvement with a new society.

well well well, this must be statement of the year so far, did you take both knee caps ?

 

[ploughman1963]

Thank you for your honest apology Colin. I try hard not to tar everyone with the same brush but sadly the main perpetrators of wrong emanate from the World disciplines. Your sensitivity is understandable and I apologise if I have upset you. We need people of your experience on board.

Sorry bob, reread and understood

 

[Howard150]

Well it seems what I feared is a reality- the blame is being squarely laid at the the door of WS (and reversible) ploughmen rather than the organisation that was responsible for any difference in the way the classes are treated. As ploughmen, we turn up and plough - although some of us tried to get things changed to make these better and have all classes and all PLOUGHMEN treated the same. You are no better than those you despise

I referred to the previous two posts, one of which is yours. I interpreted your comment to mean that you would not accept WS ploughmen in any new society- if I misunderstood you, I apologise

Not once - I repeat not once, have I accused any ploughman (apart from Harry) of anything. The ploughmen did not organise the event and never once have I said they did.
Not once - I repeat not once, have I insulted or blamed any Worldstyle ploughman of anything.
Not once - I repeat not once, have I said that Worldstyle ploughmen would not be accepted by me in any new venture.

If you get rid of the red mist and re-read all the posts you will see any scathing and negative comments by me have been directed against the establishment and not against ploughmen in particular - Worldstyle or otherwise.

I repeat my thoughts from earlier. Your comments are divisive, destructive and will ultimately harm any new venture.

Harry is another issue altogether. Seldom do we ever come across anybody so adept at arguing for the both sides simultaneously. His involvement does nothing but muddy the waters.

 

[arcobob]

I agree with much of what you have said including your final paragraph to which you expect an answer. Here it is MONEY.

Either you are being obtuse or I am not making my point clear. The World championship qualifiers within the framework of the Nationals are financed by the Society of ploughmen with money derived primarily from subs, entrance fees, stand lets and gate money. A large percentage of the physical input is from ploughmen of all disciplines. This is why the SOP supports vintage ploughing and other activities even though there is no world qualification. Just close your eyes and imagine the Nationals with only world style and a few horses and high cut. That would be a sight to behold and where would the money come from to support it without the large majority of ploughmen to bulk up the income? Vintage are fed up with being treated as providers in return for a few crumbs and a dirty floor to lie on.

 

[Ley253]

Not once - I repeat not once, have I accused any ploughman (apart from Harry) of anything. The ploughmen did not organise the event and never once have I said they did.
Not once - I repeat not once, have I insulted or blamed any Worldstyle ploughman of anything.
Not once - I repeat not once, have I said that Worldstyle ploughmen would not be accepted by me in any new venture.

If you get rid of the red mist and re-read all the posts you will see any scathing and negative comments by me have been directed against the establishment and not against ploughmen in particular - Worldstyle or otherwise.

I repeat my thoughts from earlier. Your comments are divisive, destructive and will ultimately harm any new venture.

Harry is another issue altogether. Seldom do we ever come across anybody so adept at arguing for the both sides simultaneously. His involvement does nothing but muddy the waters.

Muddy the waters? Maybe, but hard to notice with all the other stirring going on, but its nice to see that my "middle gound" position has been recognised.
One thing I cant really see and that is just how will vintage etc be better off under new management, prize money seems the only "product " on offer, and that is not the be all and end all for many. Much will have to remain as is, classes and rules for example, though the latter are a way improvements could occur, not by changing many, but by enforcing those that already exist, but how that can be done without for example, some form of competition licence being brought in,I do not know.