Speaking out for Small farmers.

[renewablejohn]

Did you get a chip for your shoulder instead?

It was more than a chip as the rest of europe looked after even the smallest of farmers with weighted support made even worse with different size rules for England compared to the rest of UK. I dont mind tough rules but its got to be a level playing field. Not bothered as I can easily manage without BPS and theres no chance of me signing up for ELMS after the debacle I have had with the Forestry Commission changing the rules after the agreement has been signed.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was trying to find the words, you have done it for me. It's a massive problem within the eco movement, they talk about small being good and big being bad, with nothing to either define it or to back it up.

For me, it isn't size, but numbers. Of people. I would say we need more people working in farming, to reverse the long term trend towards less. Critical mass. Of skills and knowledge. That is the issue.

We employ 5 full time and 5 part time plus x2 families on our family farm.
Not sure how we would sit in the “people” criteria though

 

[Breakthru]

The problem of being in an area with large estates means you can never buy anything. My dad's rented farm was taken over by Velcourt. No chance of getting your foot in that door.

The days of the large vampire corporations may now be at an end. Not to say that there are not large efficient farmers but a lot are not profitable. Might just turn the worm the other way. Bear in mind with Brexit, labour costs and inflation are going berserk. I told a supermarket man the other day that if he wants home grown fruit and veg their buyers need to tell their growers to pay £20/hour.
That will add pennies to a punnet of strawbs etc but will guarantee their supply when a lot of growers at the end of their contract will just put the plough in.
Be honest are you or anyone you know going to do the job for less.

 

[delilah]

How far would you wind the clock back , could we not say the same thing when tractors replaced horses .

That's just technological progress. The oxen handlers probably kicked off when the horses came along.

My concern is, can an industry continue to employ less people year on year forever ? You can sleep walk into a position where the critical mass of skills and knowledge has gone. It's very difficult to get them back once they are 6 foot under.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

That's just technological progress. The oxen handlers probably kicked off when the horses came along.

My concern is, can an industry continue to employ less people year on year forever ? You can sleep walk into a position where the critical mass of skills and knowledge has gone. It's very difficult to get them back once they are 6 foot under.

None of us have any idea how far technological progress will go ,

 

[kiwi pom]

We employ 5 full time and 5 part time plus x2 families on our family farm.
Not sure how we would sit in the “people” criteria though

Yes the fact larger, more intensive farms provide a living for a number of other families too tends to be ignored. You may lose some farmers but if a couple of one man band beef and sheep farms are bought and converted to dairy, its probably going to put more money in the local economy than a couple of one man bands holding on into retirement.
The contract farming, combinable crop guys have gone in the opposite direction, maximum acres per worker, often only having seasonal staff, instead of full time and growing as simple a rotation as possible, often only producing feed crops.
Perhaps the rules should be tipped against that kind of system?

 

[DrWazzock]

Family run farms are quite different from businesses with employees. You don’t really count the hours as there is no real division between hobbyc earning a living and to some extent self sufficiency. Your board and lodge comes with the job. Your home is also your workplace. You can shout st one another without ending up in front of a tribunal. The semi retired or less able still have a role to play as nobody is keeping a record or filling in a time sheet. Experience is passed on. Training is on the job. People can come and go fairly freely. There are no fixed hours or work days as long as it gets done. It’s about as near to the way a tribe works as you’ll get nowadays. A kind of naturally ordained human existence. You don’t really see that anywhere else nowadays.
It’s never a big living but it’s more a way of living. The crunch tends to come when it meets modern bureaucratic corporate systems which are more and more imposed from outside with the obsession for writing everything down and calculating everything out. We tend to rely on common sense and our memories here with feeling the need to get over bogged down in records.
Anyway that’s that. I have been all afternoon in the workshop making eccentric bushes to correct the wear in my new sprayer boom hinges and take the sag out to get boom straight again. No timesheet., no requisitions. No clocking off, just walked in for my tea half an hour ago.
It’s a good way off life by and large but I reckon could soon be confined to history unless people wake up and realise what could be lost.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes the fact larger, more intensive farms provide a living for a number of other families too tends to be ignored. You may lose some farmers but if a couple of one man band beef and sheep farms are bought and converted to dairy, its probably going to put more money in the local economy than a couple of one man bands holding on into retirement.
The contract farming, combinable crop guys have gone in the opposite direction, maximum acres per worker, often only having seasonal staff, instead of full time and growing as simple a rotation as possible, often only producing feed crops.
Perhaps the rules should be tipped against that kind of system?

What most people forget is the ripple effect.

Think about all the people employed and so directly (& indirectly) supported by our business. Would come to several thousand or even tens of thousands if you include the franchise holders and their staff of all the major pizza outlets in the U.K.

But, hey, farmers are the very devils .....

 

[daveydiesel1]

We dont pay wages apart from wee brothers friend gives us a hand some saturdays. Dont intend to start payin wages, i reckon if i cant earn a living and run a prosperous farm with me workin at it everyday theres somethin badly wrong

 

[BrianV]

How far would you wind the clock back , could we not say the same thing when tractors replaced horses .

It's not a case of winding the clock back but a redefining of the purpose of subsidies, as in many EU countries subsidy amounts should be generous for a limited acreage or animal numbers then tailing off with an upper cap, that way small farms can compete.
These stupid proposed new subsidy ideas will simply kill off small farms to the benefit of larger farms/estates!

 

[renewablejohn]

It's not a case of winding the clock back but a redefining of the purpose of subsidies, as in many EU countries subsidy amounts should be generous for a limited acreage or animal numbers then tailing off with an upper cap, that way small farms can compete.
These stupid proposed new subsidy ideas will simply kill off small farms to the benefit of larger farms/estates!

This front loading of subsidy is so important for rural communities and has been recognised throughout Europe but abandoned in the UK.

 

[BrianV]

[

This front loading of subsidy is so important for rural communities and has been recognised throughout Europe but abandoned in the UK.

Our problem is the NFU is effectively controlled by big estates & has no interest what so ever in helping smaller farms or our young folk, complete waste of time!

 

[kiwi pom]

It's not a case of winding the clock back but a redefining of the purpose of subsidies, as in many EU countries subsidy amounts should be generous for a limited acreage or animal numbers then tailing off with an upper cap, that way small farms can compete.
These stupid proposed new subsidy ideas will simply kill off small farms to the benefit of larger farms/estates!

But a small farm doesn't have the costs of employing and training people and all the H&S that comes with it either, which gives the one man band an advantage surely?

My brothers boss, gets a big subsidy cheque but he also employs 3 fulltime and some part time staff. When he took over a small ish one man band place, that wasn't making money he employed the farmer, so no real loss.
He probably spends more on machines and other things too so the money moves into the wider economy.

What do you consider a small farm and how small a place should be supported if its not providing a living?
Come to think of it, how much is a living?

 

[Derrick Hughes]

It's not a case of winding the clock back but a redefining of the purpose of subsidies, as in many EU countries subsidy amounts should be generous for a limited acreage or animal numbers then tailing off with an upper cap, that way small farms can compete.
These stupid proposed new subsidy ideas will simply kill off small farms to the benefit of larger farms/estates!

The guy earlier said changes would kill off large estates

 

[BrianV]

But a small farm doesn't have the costs of employing and training people and all the H&S that comes with it either, which gives the one man band an advantage surely?

My brothers boss, gets a big subsidy cheque but he also employs 3 fulltime and some part time staff. When he took over a small ish one man band place, that wasn't making money he employed the farmer, so no real loss.
He probably spends more on machines and other things too so the money moves into the wider economy.

What do you consider a small farm and how small a place should be supported if its not providing a living?
Come to think of it, how much is a living?

We employ 27 people with the farms & a farm shop & can easily survive with this stupid subsidy tinkering but when I look at young couples near us working hard getting started on small farms & looking at the future with dread as the small amount of subsidy they receive gets cut even if they were able to plaster their farm with trees.
It's what type of country we really want, whether it's a countryside with young farming families supporting our local schools & shops extolling the work that farmers do or mega estates with either foreign workers or big contracting machinery charging around.
Personally after looking abroad I would prefer to see the first rather than where we seem to be heading in England!

 

[Wolds Beef]

@kiwi pom You are describing an old school pall of mine and his son. I guess you are not to far away from them. He left Lincs about 20 years ago and has not looked back.
WB

 

[renewablejohn]

But a small farm doesn't have the costs of employing and training people and all the H&S that comes with it either, which gives the one man band an advantage surely?

My brothers boss, gets a big subsidy cheque but he also employs 3 fulltime and some part time staff. When he took over a small ish one man band place, that wasn't making money he employed the farmer, so no real loss.
He probably spends more on machines and other things too so the money moves into the wider economy.

What do you consider a small farm and how small a place should be supported if its not providing a living?
Come to think of it, how much is a living?

How small do you want it to be. I know a fungi grower of less than an acre and tomato grower of 4 acres both with turnover in the millions and substantial profits without any BPS. The council market farms were less than 5 acres and very profitable but could not compete with the profits to be made from turning the land into housing.

 

[BrianV]

How small do you want it to be. I know a fungi grower of less than an acre and tomato grower of 4 acres both with turnover in the millions and substantial profits without any BPS. The council market farms were less than 5 acres and very profitable but could not compete with the profits to be made from turning the land into housing.

Basically whatever system they can dream up any support available should primarily be aimed at what could be called a family unit starting out, you can always find examples of someone who bucks the plan or falls through the net but other countries seem to manage it why can't we?
When you are bigger you can always find savings when things get tough, it's not so damm easy when starting out, if they want to find money for the big boys to plant a few token trees & flowers then fine but this should not be at the expense of smaller units. You think the likes of Dyson needs the extra help.
It's time the NFU stood up for the members it was originally meant to represent!

 

[DrWazzock]

If support has to be given then why not for replacement of septic tanks and asbestos roofing? Both would help the environment and reduce the financial burden in rural dwellers and small farmers. Everybody in our village has had to replace their septic tank at a cost of £2k to £5k per dwelling. A big expense with the threat of fines if you don’t do it.
And all the while they are proposing ELMS which will pay the Duke of Englandshire to let land go to ruin or restore an ancient farm building that will be good for nothing agricultural.
If the politicians got out and about a bit they’d soon see where help was really needed to keep small farmers on the land, but in reality they are just pricing us out of rural living. We are an inconvenience.

 

[DrWazzock]

I am not even sure it’s about “ support “. My view is cutting all agricultural support to zero might actually increase opportunities for small farmers, as then what matters is who can make the job itself pay rather than who can play the system. And in my view small farmers can make the job pay.
I’ve always said if you need support why not rely on the DSS for income support or tax credits like everybody else does.