Spirituality and farming

[Kiwi Pete]

Fully organic?

Not officially, ie I don't need the rules or cost to the biome.
Health always suffers... the most toxic substances here are fossil fuels and ag salt... I do about 45 minutes per acre in the tractor per year.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

I stated when I joined the holistic grazing thread that as a Christian the whole idea sits well with my faith.
I don't particularly like the word "religious". You can be religious about a lot of things.
In my youth there was a cartoon doing the rounds in Christian circles that "God wants spiritual fruits not religious nuts"
Religion (like most things in life) can be misused and abused.

But for me Spirituality just comes back to the idea of Love really. All this talk of feeling connected, connection, mother earth, gaia etc comes down to a persons feeling of love and how they choose to frame and direct their love - for some its football, for some its family, for some its land, for some its all three etc. .

And love is what Jesus says sums up the Christian faith.
Love for God and love for your neighbour. If that doesn't include love for God's creation and the environment in which your neighbour has to live, and the food we feed them, it's not consistent imo.
We're also to be known by our fruits. The walk has to be consistent with the talk.
But none of us is perfect. We all mess up. But what do we do with those mess ups?

Am I talking spirituality or farming now..?

 

[SilliamWhale]

I stated when I joined the holistic grazing thread that as a Christian the whole idea sits well with my faith.
I don't particularly like the word "religious". You can be religious about a lot of things.
In my youth there was a cartoon doing the rounds in Christian circles that "God wants spiritual fruits not religious nuts"
Religion (like most things in life) can be misused and abused.



And love is what Jesus says sums up the Christian faith.
Love for God and love for your neighbour. If that doesn't include love for God's creation and the environment in which your neighbour has to live, and the food we feed them, it's not consistent imo.
We're also to be known by our fruits. The walk has to be consistent with the talk.
But none of us is perfect. We all mess up. But what do we do with those mess ups?

Am I talking spirituality or farming now..?

Is this no different fundamentally from all faiths? Wasn't the "faith" bit of love created to develop a better order/ hierarchy/ efficiency for societies?

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Is this no different fundamentally from all faiths? Wasn't the "faith" bit of love created to develop a better order/ hierarchy/ efficiency for societies?

There are elements of it in all faiths.
Loving your enemy (think about the good Samaritan story in response to the question "who is my neighbour") tends to separate the Christian faith.

 

[SilliamWhale]

There are elements of it in all faiths.
Loving your enemy (think about the good Samaritan story in response to the question "who is my neighbour") tends to separate the Christian faith.

As a moral code I appreciate the value of the story of the Good Samaritan in how to live ones life. But the story isn't unique and the raison de etre has many similar forms of all organised religions and non religious advice

 

[Poorbuthappy]

As a moral code I appreciate the value of the story of the Good Samaritan in how to live ones life. But the story isn't unique and the raison de etre has many similar forms of all organised religions and non religious advice

It's universality adds weight to it imo not detracts.
But I understand it has far more emphasis in Christianity. But I am no expert on world religions.

 

[Macsky]

As a moral code I appreciate the value of the story of the Good Samaritan in how to live ones life. But the story isn't unique and the raison de etre has many similar forms of all organised religions and non religious advice

Most religions offer you favourable returns in eternity for your good works on earth, this is where Christianity differs wildly, you don’t/can’t earn your way into God’s favour, if you study the 10 commandments, you’ll find that, Christian or not, you will break most of them every single day, so how could a perfectly just God allow the guilty into a perfect and holy heaven, without compromising his justice, and defiling the place?

Enter Jesus, He lived the perfect and blameless life that we can’t, and was unjustly killed, which is just as well, because:

“He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.” Isaiah 53v5
(Written 700BC)

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” John 3v16

So it’s very hard to chuck Christianity in with all other religions, as it is not salvation by works, but rather:

“it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.” Ephesians 2v8-9

If the 10 commandments were lived by at their basic face value, who could argue that the world wouldn’t be a better place? But when you really look into them you see just how far we fall short of God’s standard, see the sermon on the mount (Matthew ch5-7).

So back to agriculture, if we can farm in a manner that honours, in order:

1 God
2 Others
3 Ourselves

then I think the benefits to human health and the our natural environment would be unimaginable. I see the holistic and regenerative thinking at the moment a hopeful path towards this, but alas:

“out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” Mark 7v21-23

So I’m not expecting the big businesses of the world to wake up anytime soon, as long as there is profit to be made from destruction. Rather, I must try to be the the salt (preservative) and light (guide) that I am challenged to be, and retain hope and thankfulness in the finished work of the cross that I might one day be in the presence of God, and enjoy the perfection of Him and of it, and to being washed of all my sins, and the sinful nature that causes us all so much grief.

 

[martian]

Yes set up a system that works
Reduced pesticides and inputs.
Show others and it gets them thinking
‘Hey maybe we should do that?’
Bring back proper rotations with livestock to get soil health and organic matter back up where it should be.
We are only guardians at the end of the day.

It's the first line that's the tricky bit...
BTW, I've always wondered, is the 'rev' in your title 'reverend'? Or revolution? Or tell me it's none of my business!t's just that iIn my head I've got you wearing a dog-collar. A dear departed cousin of mine suddenly turned into a vicar having been a farmer for fifty years. He said he got the idea from when he was in the army, he was in Cyprus trying to stop them all killing each other when he saw a bunch of priests (or is it a frock of priests?) making hay and he had a revelation that that was the way to go. Judging by this thread he wasn't alone in that thought.

 

[Kevtherev]

It's the first line that's the tricky bit...
BTW, I've always wondered, is the 'rev' in your title 'reverend'? Or revolution? Or tell me it's none of my business!t's just that iIn my head I've got you wearing a dog-collar. A dear departed cousin of mine suddenly turned into a vicar having been a farmer for fifty years. He said he got the idea from when he was in the army, he was in Cyprus trying to stop them all killing each other when he saw a bunch of priests (or is it a frock of priests?) making hay and he had a revelation that that was the way to go. Judging by this thread he wasn't alone in that thought.

Not religious at all I’m afraid.
Rev is in relation to engine revolutions [emoji23]

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Intrigued, now - where does the popular monoculture fit in with spirituality?

Other than the 7 cardinal sins, of course.

 

[Treg]

I stated when I joined the holistic grazing thread that as a Christian the whole idea sits well with my faith.
I don't particularly like the word "religious". You can be religious about a lot of things.
In my youth there was a cartoon doing the rounds in Christian circles that "God wants spiritual fruits not religious nuts"
Religion (like most things in life) can be misused and abused.



And love is what Jesus says sums up the Christian faith.
Love for God and love for your neighbour. If that doesn't include love for God's creation and the environment in which your neighbour has to live, and the food we feed them, it's not consistent imo.
We're also to be known by our fruits. The walk has to be consistent with the talk.
But none of us is perfect. We all mess up. But what do we do with those mess ups?

Am I talking spirituality or farming now..?

Brilliant post, thank you couldn't have put it better myself

 

[Treg]

It's interesting reading this thread & maybe linking religion/ faith with regenerative Ag & is making me think...
A couple of generations ago the majority of farmers would have gone to church ( chapel e're in Cornwall) & farmed more respectful of the environment . Are the 2 linked?
There are a couple of posters who maybe are not what you would call religious but I would say maybe have a type of faith , I will say @Blaithin because what you have said sounds similar to old Celtic beliefs more in tone with nature , so are respectful of it.
It just seems that the modern world is less respectful of everything.
On the news this week they said it takes 6kgs of ore to produce enough precious metals for one mobile phone! Can we really carry on abusing the world like we are?

 

[SilliamWhale]

It's interesting reading this thread & maybe linking religion/ faith with regenerative Ag & is making me think...
A couple of generations ago the majority of farmers would have gone to church ( chapel e're in Cornwall) & farmed more respectful of the environment . Are the 2 linked?
There are a couple of posters who maybe are not what you would call religious but I would say maybe have a type of faith , I will say @Blaithin because what you have said sounds similar to old Celtic beliefs more in tone with nature , so are respectful of it.
It just seems that the modern world is less respectful of everything.
On the news this week they said it takes 6kgs of ore to produce enough precious metals for one mobile phone! Can we really carry on abusing the world like we are?

Not necessarily. They just did what they thought was the right thing and lived their religion around it.

 

[Macsky]

Not necessarily. They just did what they thought was the right thing and lived their religion around it.

I doubt very much that their religion did not affect how they worked.

 

[Dan Powell]

Interesting thread. If any of you haven't read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn then I highly recommend it. It may change your life. Makes you look at Genesis, agriculture and mankind's place in the world in a totally different way.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ishmael-Daniel-Quinn/dp/0613080939

 

[Daniel]

It's interesting reading this thread & maybe linking religion/ faith with regenerative Ag & is making me think...
A couple of generations ago the majority of farmers would have gone to church ( chapel e're in Cornwall) & farmed more respectful of the environment.

In what way? I suspect they would have used the same machinery and chemicals as everyone else, because they wouldn’t have known whether or not it was harming the environment, and would have needed to remain economically competitive.

Not necessarily. They just did what they thought was the right thing and lived their religion around it.

Possibly if their Church attendance was simply because it was the done thing. But for many, particularly non-conformists of the 19th + 20th century, their faith was at the foundation of their life choices, rather than a bolt on extra.

But I’d question as to whether this made them any more or less environmentally aware. Although I suppose they would have a more developed view of greed being a sin rather than something to be applauded.

 

[Treg]

In what way? I suspect they would have used the same machinery and chemicals as everyone else, because they wouldn’t have known whether or not it was harming the environment, and would have needed to remain economically competitive.



Possibly if their Church attendance was simply because it was the done thing. But for many, particularly non-conformists of the 19th + 20th century, their faith was at the foundation of their life choices, rather than a bolt on extra.

But I’d question as to whether this made them any more or less environmentally aware. Although I suppose they would have a more developed view of greed being a sin rather than something to be applauded.

My great granparents didn't have any machinery, my dad bought the farms first tractor in the sixties , first loader tractor in 89!! On a dairy farm!!
My great granparents were well aware of the harms in the environment as the reason they bought the farm was to get my great grandfather up out of the mine so he mite live beyond 40.
My great grandfather looked at what herbs were growing in his pasture to determine it's health.
Being Cornish Methodists they were preached the evils of alcohol & taught to spend their money on their families, buying a spray would have been looked at the same way. ( your hard earned cash going to big business).
In 3 generations (the farm skipped one) I think only 8acres has been sprayed , by me before I learnt the errors of my ways & went Organic.

 

[martian]

Interesting thread. If any of you haven't read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn then I highly recommend it. It may change your life. Makes you look at Genesis, agriculture and mankind's place in the world in a totally different way.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ishmael-Daniel-Quinn/dp/0613080939

Sounds good, many thanks

 

[martian]

One of the abiding themes in Charles Massy's book is that we are living in the Anthropocene, which is basically a man-made geological epoch. It has superceded the Holocene, in which early man followed the retreating glaciers as the ice-age ended. These primitive humans had a relatively benigh impact on the planet, but now we are witnessing mass species extinction, global climate change, desertification and all the other horrors, which has given rise to the term Anthropocene. In large part this is because we view ourselves as above the rest of creation (witness the quote from Genesis above).

Now I love our local Church, but increasingly more as a building and a concept than what it teaches. I feel we need to see the world for what it is, a beautiful self-organising and incredibly complex ecosystem which we can work with to feed and clothe ourselves, having seen what happens when we try to work against it. By any ethical standards, most facets of industrial agriculture are simply wrong, so we need to find ways of doing it right if we are going to live the good life ourselves and, at the same time, heal the planet.

Unfortunately our culture as it stands is ego driven, we've moved on a bit from the worst excesses of the ghastly 'greed is good' years of the 1980's, but I suspect we'll need to sink a bit lower before there's a mass movement to get Gaia back on track. The problem is, the deeper you sink into the 'material world' the further you get from the spirit world, where we can connect with the rest of creation as equals. I think there's an important link here with the Knepp experiment (talked about in the Wilding thread elsewhere on the Holistic forum), little islands of wilderness help us make this connection.

Aldo Leopold and others talk about a 'Land Ethic', which makes sense to me. Land ownership is a slippery slope, if it means you can abuse the land however much you like. Every acre is part of Gaia, it needs treating as such. Having that spiritual connection helps the farmer to 'do the right thing'.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

One of the abiding themes in Charles Massy's book is that we are living in the Anthropocene, which is basically a man-made geological epoch. It has superceded the Holocene, in which early man followed the retreating glaciers as the ice-age ended. These primitive humans had a relatively benigh impact on the planet, but now we are witnessing mass species extinction, global climate change, desertification and all the other horrors, which has given rise to the term Anthropocene. In large part this is because we view ourselves as above the rest of creation (witness the quote from Genesis above).

A rampant view in most 1st world countries I'm afraid.

I feel we need to see the world for what it is, a beautiful self-organising and incredibly complex ecosystem which we can work with to feed and clothe ourselves, having seen what happens when we try to work against it. By any ethical standards, most facets of industrial agriculture are simply wrong, so we need to find ways of doing it right if we are going to live the good life ourselves and, at the same time, heal the planet.

Agreed. A good start would be to get scientists to accept that the reductionist approach to research methods is not approporiate when the subject is natural systems. Their inter-connected complexity makes the results from reductionist "single variable" trials (where they aim to "control" for all other variables and investigate the impact of just one) at best error prone and at worst dangerously misleading.

Unfortunately our culture as it stands is ego driven, we've moved on a bit from the worst excesses of the ghastly 'greed is good' years of the 1980's, but I suspect we'll need to sink a bit lower before there's a mass movement to get Gaia back on track. The problem is, the deeper you sink into the 'material world' the further you get from the spirit world, where we can connect with the rest of creation as equals.

Unfortunately all those who run our country (big business leaders and politicians) are all wedded to the "endless growth" paradigm where "success" is measured by more of everything: More production, more sales, more turnover....

Until we, AS A SOCIETY, redefine "growth", "progress" and "success" to something more like meeting the needs of the country / company / people with lower ecological impact every year then we are doomed to continue the eco-armageddon.