Stay organic or go conventional?

[Muddyroads]

Rented 200 acre farm, mainly sheep and beef, been organic for last 10 years. Combination of hungry sand and lower lying permanent grassland which lies wet. Been HLS for last 10 years as well, which has resulted in poor land getting poorer, and wetter areas becoming increasingly swamped by rushes. Been intending to go conventional once HLS is finished, primarily to get on top of weed control and improve soil organic matter, but staying on low inputs and focusing on maintaining and improving wildlife. Landlord has agreed, but is now putting pressure on to remain organic. What would you do?

 

[Banana Bar]

Organic outdoor pigs

 

[bobk]

Rented 200 acre farm, mainly sheep and beef, been organic for last 10 years. Combination of hungry sand and lower lying permanent grassland which lies wet. Been HLS for last 10 years as well, which has resulted in poor land getting poorer, and wetter areas becoming increasingly swamped by rushes. Been intending to go conventional once HLS is finished, primarily to get on top of weed control and improve soil organic matter, but staying on low inputs and focusing on maintaining and improving wildlife. Landlord has agreed, but is now putting pressure on to remain organic. What would you do?

Tell him to get someone else

 

[Chae1]

Have you not read the holistic threads on here?

When you stop applying lime and fert your farm improves. There all there in the soil, just not available. Get the soil biology right. Drainage will improve too.

The rest of us are all doing it wrong.

 

[Henarar]

are you making a decent enough premium selling organic ?

 

[Henarar]

Have you not read the holistic threads on here?

When you stop applying lime and fert your farm improves. There all there in the soil, just not available. Get the soil biology right. Drainage will improve too.

The rest of us are all doing it wrong.

its not quite as simple as just stopping lime and fert hence the holistic tag

 

[hendrebc]

How will going back to conventional help you raise organic matter on a livestock farm?

 

[Tim W]

Having run organic farms as well as synthetic input farms for many years i would hazard a guess that it's the HLS bit that may be limiting you rather than the organic bit?

 

[neilo]

Rented 200 acre farm, mainly sheep and beef, been organic for last 10 years. Combination of hungry sand and lower lying permanent grassland which lies wet. Been HLS for last 10 years as well, which has resulted in poor land getting poorer, and wetter areas becoming increasingly swamped by rushes. Been intending to go conventional once HLS is finished, primarily to get on top of weed control and improve soil organic matter, but staying on low inputs and focusing on maintaining and improving wildlife. Landlord has agreed, but is now putting pressure on to remain organic. What would you do?

It sounds like you need to make a convincing argument to persuade your landlord, or risk losing the tenancy sooner or later.
Personally, I would argue that selective use of herbicides and/or applied nutrients is a useful management tool within your stated aims, and no reason at all why operating under Soil Association rules would be any better for that.

 

[Tim W]

It sounds like you need to make a convincing argument to persuade your landlord, or risk losing the tenancy sooner or later.
Personally, I would argue that selective use of herbicides and/or applied nutrients is a useful management tool within your stated aims, and no reason at all why operating under Soil Association rules would be any better for that.

As with all things it probably depends on the market ---will the organic market be strengthened in the future or weakened (market of course is not just limited to payments for lamb/beef/grain but also any future govt. payments)

 

[kill]

Having run organic farms as well as synthetic input farms for many years i would hazard a guess that it's the HLS bit that may be limiting you rather than the organic bit?

Can't agree with this enough.
I have seen farms go absolutely to the dogs because of HLS agreements like one farm local to me where it's probably now a third scrub, a third rushes and a third poor grazing from what was a reasonable farm and stock numbers have halfed and stock are not great and hedges trimmed every 3-4 years are wrecked have just gone stumpy and hollow and not great for wildlife.

 

[Henarar]

Can't agree with this enough.
I have seen farms go absolutely to the dogs because of HLS agreements like one farm local to me where it's probably now a third scrub, a third rushes and a third poor grazing from what was a reasonable farm and stock numbers have halfed and stock are not great and hedges trimmed every 3-4 years are wrecked have just gone stumpy and hollow and not great for wildlife.

sounds good how much does it pay

 

[kill]

sounds good how much does it pay

I understand they pickup a similar amount to their BPS payment for HLS .

 

[Muddyroads]

Having run organic farms as well as synthetic input farms for many years i would hazard a guess that it's the HLS bit that may be limiting you rather than the organic bit?

Quite agree. The combination of the 2 have resulted in poor soils and equally poor productivity. My issue is whether I can correct the problems resulting from the HLS restrictions whilst being strictly organic, or simply farming to organic principles.

 

[Muddyroads]

are you making a decent enough premium selling organic ?

Not getting any real premium for organic beef or lamb. The financial benefits are more likely to come from a new 5 year CS scheme. One of my dilemmas is whether the organic component of a new stewardship scheme will offset the extra costs of remaining organic.

 

[Muddyroads]

How will going back to conventional help you raise organic matter on a livestock farm?

By being able to import compost or digestate which would be banned under Soil Association rules. Additionally any extra growth from small amounts of “artificial” would be returned as a result of slightly higher stocking rates.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Learn to LOVE it, warts, weeds, and all.

People are too negative about the parts that they don't like, and the "whole" knows if you don't care about the whole

Don't ask me how... but those who "hate" weeds and bogs never have as much success as those who simply accept them, and learn to love them all the same - the 'farm' knows if you intend to kill and desecrate parts of it, and it sulks.

All living things are, of course, created equal, so you need to "be organic" for the right reasons

FWIW I am not an Organictm farmer

 

[multi power]

By being able to import compost or digestate which would be banned under Soil Association rules. Additionally any extra growth from small amounts of “artificial” would be returned as a result of slightly higher stocking rates.

Both compost and digestate are allowed under organic rules

 

[Muddyroads]

Both compost and digestate are allowed under organic rules

That’s useful, thank you.

 

[multi power]

That’s useful, thank you.

No problems