Stirling bull sales.

[M-J-G]

Getting semen off good simmental bulls is easier than getting the right ones for the job in the Charolais anyway! If your happy to bid away for the bull that you think is right for your herd, it could be for different reasons to others, e.g a premium for health status, tb4, known herd, everyone has a value in their mind before they splash whatever amount they are confortable with.
Totally agree with what your saying...plenty good bulls missed by many, or just not the majorities cup of tea hence the lower value. Feel free to private msg with you honest opinion on the bulls i had there M-J-G!

Of course people will have a budget and sales often command strong prices, but plenty aren't worth in IMO, and plenty of underdog lesser priced and home sold bulls will do just as well.
I've never paid high prices for bulls but I have used a few straws off higher priced bulls and have been regularly disappointed.

I didn't watch many Char bulls, but overall what I did see looked very good.

 

[M-J-G]

I’m not passing judgement

I agree, plenty bulls to be had for bargain money if all you want to do is bull a few cross bred cows. However, if you need stock of a certain health status (johnes 1 and bvd free for us) and you have to play the silly EBV game and get something that is fresh blood then your options can be hampered. There will be commercial men on this game too especially those retaining their own heifers.

Out of interest, how would you cost your bulls per cow? I am at a loss as to see any other way than start cost less end value divided by number of years divided by number of cows served per year? It’s a pretty standard calculation for costing gross margins.

There are plenty of bulls to be had at lower prices for any job, people just need to use their eye and not go to sales.

I've always been breeding pedigrees and keeping our own heifers, always bought from a longterm accredited herd and I've not gone over 4k for a bull.

I don't bother costing a bull as they cost what they cost, and extra money for a bull doesn't always mean extra money for calves. AI isn't really an option for me so on a whole herd basis, so we need a bull.

Cost price minus sale price along with cost of keep is usually how I would cost running a bull I'd I was to do that.
Purchase price -sale price
÷ years used + keep/repairs
÷ number of his calves weaned

Dividing by the numbers of cows or number of calves born is unrealistic IMO as it doesn't cover poor fertility or calves that aren't weaned

I've regularly used bulls for two or 3 years and sold them for more than I paid, but he still had to be kept for that time.

 

[Bill the Bass]

There are plenty of bulls to be had at lower prices for any job, people just need to use their eye and not go to sales.

I've always been breeding pedigrees and keeping our own heifers, always bought from a longterm accredited herd and I've not gone over 4k for a bull.

I don't bother costing a bull as they cost what they cost, and extra money for a bull doesn't always mean extra money for calves. AI isn't really an option for me so on a whole herd basis, so we need a bull.

Cost price minus sale price along with cost of keep is usually how I would cost running a bull I'd I was to do that.
Purchase price -sale price
÷ years used + keep/repairs
÷ number of his calves weaned

Dividing by the numbers of cows or number of calves born is unrealistic IMO as it doesn't cover poor fertility or calves that aren't weaned

I've regularly used bulls for two or 3 years and sold them for more than I paid, but he still had to be kept for that time.

I think there is a lot of cross purposes being talked about on this thread.

The question was how do people justify the price paid for bulls (an intangible asset). I showed how that cost was amortised and therefore annually budgeted to give a subsequent capital budget for buying a bull using fairly standard management accounting processes. A bulls subsequent fertility and feeding costs don’t come into it as you account for these elsewhere in the enterprise. At no point when deciding the price for a bull would you consider his relative fertility as an ‘escalation’ of his cost or indeed how much he eats as you have a bull to keep whether he cost £500 or £5000. he should be fertile enough to undertake his task regardless of price tag.

 

[M-J-G]

I think there is a lot of cross purposes being talked about on this thread.

The question was how do people justify the price paid for bulls (an intangible asset). I showed how that cost was amortised and therefore annually budgeted to give a subsequent capital budget for buying a bull using fairly standard management accounting processes. A bulls subsequent fertility and feeding costs don’t come into it as you account for these elsewhere in the enterprise. At no point when deciding the price for a bull would you consider his relative fertility as an ‘escalation’ of his cost or indeed how much he eats as you have a bull to keep whether he cost £500 or £5000. he should be fertile enough to undertake his task regardless of price tag.

I'd say the the big price can't usually be justifed because there are usually always cheaper bulls that will do just as well if buyers are prepared to look.

Even a bull that's running at near perfect fertility will only achieve pregnancies in 70% of his services, so dividing a bull over the 40 cows that he runs with isn't usually realistic.

As for not costing the bulls keep, I'd still say allocation of that is still applicable, because many will still have to justify buying a bull over AI.
Although AI only isn't an option for me, this year I did consider not buying a bull and AI'ing quite a few cows in the first cycle and sweeping with the bulls that we already have until a young homebred bull came forward.
Admittedly I didn't consider it for too long, but if I'd been autumn calving it would probably have happened.

 

[top char]

Of course people will have a budget and sales often command strong prices, but plenty aren't worth in IMO, and plenty of underdog lesser priced and home sold bulls will do just as well.
I've never paid high prices for bulls but I have used a few straws off higher priced bulls and have been regularly disappointed.

I didn't watch many Char bulls, but overall what I did see looked very good.

I had two simmy bulls there as well as the chars! Lots 479 and 506

 

[Bill the Bass]

I'd say the the big price can't usually be justifed because there are usually always cheaper bulls that will do just as well if buyers are prepared to look.

Even a bull that's running at near perfect fertility will only achieve pregnancies in 70% of his services, so dividing a bull over the 40 cows that he runs with isn't usually realistic.

As for not costing the bulls keep, I'd still say allocation of that is still applicable, because many will still have to justify buying a bull over AI.
Although AI only isn't an option for me, this year I did consider not buying a bull and AI'ing quite a few cows in the first cycle and sweeping with the bulls that we already have until a young homebred bull came forward.
Admittedly I didn't consider it for too long, but if I'd been autumn calving it would probably have happened.

I'd say the the big price can't usually be justifed because there are usually always cheaper bulls that will do just as well if buyers are prepared to look.

Even a bull that's running at near perfect fertility will only achieve pregnancies in 70% of his services, so dividing a bull over the 40 cows that he runs with isn't usually realistic.

As for not costing the bulls keep, I'd still say allocation of that is still applicable, because many will still have to justify buying a bull over AI.
Although AI only isn't an option for me, this year I did consider not buying a bull and AI'ing quite a few cows in the first cycle and sweeping with the bulls that we already have until a young homebred bull came forward.
Admittedly I didn't consider it for too long, but if I'd been autumn calving it would probably have happened.

I didn’t say a bulls keep shouldn’t be costed, I clearly said it is accounted for elsewhere, regardless I still don’t see what difference the cost to keep a bull makes to his purchase price - what are you going to do save money on his keep by not running a bull?

Again the replacement cost of an animal, in any breeding herd is costed and therefore budgeted as I have said - it’s a standard way of doing it that you will find in any farm management hand book - Nix, SAC etc. Fertility costs and keep costs do not come into the cost of a replacement as is amortised- they are accounted for elsewhere. If you work out cost less end sale price divided by years in use divided by either no of cows or number of progeny sold you can get an idea of how much you can give for a bull - assuming you know the costs of the rest of your enterprise…

If you want to work your costs on a per cow basis then you have to have every cow in the equation, it’s a bit like costing per ha, but saying we lost 10ha of wheat through take all so we are not counting the establishment costs of those ten ha in our enterprise performance - or have I got the wrong end of your post?

Your comments on AI bulls are interesting; one to consider, just because a bull doesn’t click with your cows doesn’t make him a bad bull - perhaps in the same way a high priced bull doesn’t always get good calves. You can’t breed rats from mice as they say.

 

[M-J-G]

I didn’t say a bulls keep shouldn’t be costed, I clearly said it is accounted for elsewhere, regardless I still don’t see what difference the cost to keep a bull makes to his purchase price - what are you going to do save money on his keep by not running a bull?

Again the replacement cost of an animal, in any breeding herd is costed and therefore budgeted as I have said - it’s a standard way of doing it that you will find in any farm management hand book - Nix, SAC etc. Fertility costs and keep costs do not come into the cost of a replacement as is amortised- they are accounted for elsewhere. If you work out cost less end sale price divided by years in use divided by either no of cows or number of progeny sold you can get an idea of how much you can give for a bull - assuming you know the costs of the rest of your enterprise…

If you want to work your costs on a per cow basis then you have to have every cow in the equation, it’s a bit like costing per ha, but saying we lost 10ha of wheat through take all so we are not counting the establishment costs of those ten ha in our enterprise performance - or have I got the wrong end of your post?

Your comments on AI bulls are interesting; one to consider, just because a bull doesn’t click with your cows doesn’t make him a bad bull - perhaps in the same way a high priced bull doesn’t always get good calves. You can’t breed rats from mice as they say.

You don't have to keep a bull if you AI, so I prefer to class the cost of keeping the bull as the cost of getting cows in calf because I do AI some cows.

Of course SAC or whoever will have a standardised way to allocate costs, they speak generally, so does my accountant, but I tend to count things a bit differently than number crunchers do.

If you still add bulling costs to your barren cows do you spread the cost of an infertile bull across the rest of your bulls?
I personally allocate it individually, just like I do with empty cows as they produce zero income.

 

[Weasel]

Of course people will have a budget and sales often command strong prices, but plenty aren't worth in IMO, and plenty of underdog lesser priced and home sold bulls will do just as well.
I've never paid higher prices for bulls but I have used a few straws off higher priced bulls and have been regularly disappointed.

I didn't watch many Char bulls, but overall what I did see looked very good.

Where were you about at the ringside when the simmentals were sold?

 

[M-J-G]

Where were you about at the ringside when the simmentals were sold?

I was out the back in the collecting area.

 

[Weasel]

I was out the back in the collecting area.

Probably walked past you

 

[M-J-G]

Probably walked past you

Most folks intentionally do!

 

[Happy]

I was out the back in the collecting area.

I know the not judging a bull from it’s photo debate has been done on here before but did the champion look better in the mart than he did in Scottish Farmer photo? Looked the plainest of all the bulls shown on their pages.

 

[M-J-G]

I know the not judging a bull from it’s photo debate has been done on here before but did the champion look better in the mart than he did in Scottish Farmer photo? Looked the plainest of all the bulls shown on their pages.

I don't buy the Scottish farmer so I didn't see those photos.
To be fair he was a pretty good bull all round, but he had some size and power for a junior bull.
At one point I had to check that he had a white head as he reminded me of something you'd find in the junior classes at a Lim sale in Carlisle 🗓

 

[M-J-G]

Best Sim bull of the sale for me was Wolfstar Loose Cannon, his sires quality showing through yet again.