Stock that Suits the Farm and System

[DrWazzock]

After a couple of years of sucklers here, British Whites, I have noticed that two of my cows who are actually the smallest have been trouble free, have neat bags and always calve unassisted with calves up and sucking in half an hour. These smaller cows don't get over fat on the clover leys but keep the right condition without having to mess around too much. Their calves (shorthorn cross) seem to do better than those on the larger cows who get too fat, have bags that are too big and just aren't as perky and concerned about their calves. They occasionally cough or wheeze a bit but have never needed antibiotics and they look well.

Rather than get too concerned about EBVs, pedigree lines, particular breeds and all that, wouldn't I be better to select my own breeding stock from what does best here, provided it has reasonably acceptable conformation? I am not concerned about pure lines, I just want vigorous easy managed stock that suit me and my system. Wouldn't I probably also be better buying in hardy hybrid stock from hardy neighbours herds rather than pampered pedigrees which have the right colours but that seem to give me nothing but grief. I am sure they work for the experts and specialists but I'm neither of those but more of a jack of all trades who needs to get on.

The biggest job I have on a mixed farm is keeping condition scores down on breeding stock.

Ironically, the stock for which I paid least, have paid me back best. It's a funny old job.

 

[GTB]

But isn't that exactly what most farmers have been doing over the centuries i. e. Keeping their own replacements by picking the best 'do-ers' and avoiding any problem mother's offspring. This was the only system available before recording and ebv were invented. We breed half our ewes pure here and cross the other half with terminal sires. Guess which ones we breed pure? Same with cattle...

 

[Cowgirl]

Like you, we only have a small herd of native breed cattle. It has been an interesting journey, and we too have trouble keeping condition off our cows, even though they only eat grass and hay - they're just like native ponies. We started with cows from 5 different female families, and although they are all of the same breed, it is easy to recognise the different families as they all have different traits. We haven't had the luxury of having enough cows to cull those whose traits we don't like, but it's becoming apparent to me that two of the families are doing much better than the others, and I think it is likely that the others may "cull" themselves eventually. This is obviously because the successful ones suit our farm. However that's not to say that they wouldn't suit someone else's, either in this country or abroad - I wish we had a hill to keep the fatter ones on to challenge them nutritionally.

 

[choochter]

Just keep the quiet ones that wean the heaviest calves.

 

[choochter]

...and also, considered use of AI can really improve a herd without having to buy in replacements.
(I'm quite keen on keeping my herd closed)

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Without appearing rude but the art is not to let your cows get fat or do these cows get fat when in full milk production .then if so there is little you can do

 

[DrWazzock]

But I like to turn them onto a good clover ley in the spring to boost the milk and grow the calves. This makes the cows too fat, but the calves grow very well.

If I turn out onto poorer pasture, won't it restrict the calves growth rate?

How do you balance the growth needs of the suckling calf with the need to keep the cows condition down?

 

[DrWazzock]

Answering my own question I think I am better off with smaller cows on my highly productive grass leys. The calves will keep the small cows condition down but they won't keep the big cows condition down.

Bigger cows suit poorer pastures?

 

[DRC]

But I like to turn them onto a good clover ley in the spring to boost the milk and grow the calves. This makes the cows too fat, but the calves grow very well.

If I turn out onto poorer pasture, won't it restrict the calves growth rate?

How do you balance the growth needs of the suckling calf with the need to keep the cows condition down?

Maybe some sort of forward creep/ grazing system with a gate that only the calves can get through , so they get the best grazing with the cows mopping up. I've seen it with sheep.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

But I like to turn them onto a good clover ley in the spring to boost the milk and grow the calves. This makes the cows too fat, but the calves grow very well.

If I turn out onto poorer pasture, won't it restrict the calves growth rate?

How do you balance the growth needs of the suckling calf with the need to keep the cows condition down?

You can't if they are freshly calved . The only option is early weaning, give the best to the calves and put the cows on a straw diet

 

[Danllan]

...wouldn't I be better to select my own breeding stock from what does best here, provided it has reasonably acceptable conformation?

Yes, obviously.

Answering my own question I think I am better off with smaller cows on my highly productive grass leys. The calves will keep the small cows condition down but they won't keep the big cows condition down.

Bigger cows suit poorer pastures?

Work out what you're getting as a meat kg /acre and go from there.

... picking the best 'do-ers' and avoiding any problem mother's offspring...

Do we share a grandfather? That is a virtual quote of my Dadcu...

 

[choochter]

if your grazing ground is that good, @DrWazzock , might you be better off with a continental breed?

 

[JP1]

After a couple of years of sucklers here, British Whites, I have noticed that two of my cows who are actually the smallest have been trouble free, have neat bags and always calve unassisted with calves up and sucking in half an hour. These smaller cows don't get over fat on the clover leys but keep the right condition without having to mess around too much. Their calves (shorthorn cross) seem to do better than those on the larger cows who get too fat, have bags that are too big and just aren't as perky and concerned about their calves. They occasionally cough or wheeze a bit but have never needed antibiotics and they look well.

Rather than get too concerned about EBVs, pedigree lines, particular breeds and all that, wouldn't I be better to select my own breeding stock from what does best here, provided it has reasonably acceptable conformation? I am not concerned about pure lines, I just want vigorous easy managed stock that suit me and my system. Wouldn't I probably also be better buying in hardy hybrid stock from hardy neighbours herds rather than pampered pedigrees which have the right colours but that seem to give me nothing but grief. I am sure they work for the experts and specialists but I'm neither of those but more of a jack of all trades who needs to get on.

The biggest job I have on a mixed farm is keeping condition scores down on breeding stock.

Ironically, the stock for which I paid least, have paid me back best. It's a funny old job.

Joel Salatin would run up to you and hug you for that post. He adopts just the same principle for his hogs, chickens and cattle. They just have to be functional, healthy and trouble free. He despises pedigree anything

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I suppose you have to decide what you want to keep but if cows putting fat on when it's on full milk it needs the bullet or stick another calf on it

 

[CharcoalWally]

If I turn out onto poorer pasture, won't it restrict the calves growth rate?

Now here you're adressing the point you raise in the thread title. There are many breeds that are actually adapted to growing a calf and looking after themselves on poorer pasture.These cows will perform really well in this environment, but that's no good to you if you don't have this type of ground. The key is you really have to know your own farm and what it's capable of carrying in cow breeds.

As @choochter has said above, if your British White cows are getting too fat and not giving enough back, then maybe your farm would be more suited to a more productive cow that would really milk a calf on.

There will be many beef units up here carrying a big cow on good ground and it will work really well for them.

Because their farm lets it happen.

 

[west coast angus]

I suppose you have to decide what you want to keep but if cows putting fat on when it's on full milk it needs the bullet or stick another calf on it

A cow that can rear a good calf and put condition on off grass is a bloody good cow! I would say the last thing it needs is a bullet!

 

[CharcoalWally]

Joel Salatin would run up to you and hug you for that post. He adopts just the same principle for his hogs, chickens and cattle. They just have to be functional, healthy and trouble free. He despises pedigree anything

Lots of good hard working hybrids start from a pedigree parent.

 

[CharcoalWally]

A cow that can rear a good calf and put condition on off grass is a bloody good cow! I would say the last thing it needs is a bullet!

Hell of a lot better than a cow that loses condition when working.

 

[JP1]

Lots of good hard working hybrids start from a pedigree parent.

And ALL pedigree cattle and sheep started in the foundation herd / flock books centuries ago from good regional "types"

 

[reverand]

Not to sure .
Everyone would have 20000 herdwicks on that principle.
If your ground is that good maybe you haven't found just the strain of bigger breed. Nothing wrong with British whites btw