Suffolk or texel Rams?

[Top Tip.]

More Pics this time from Mark Jarvis near Cowbridge in S Wales. He runs EasySuffolk Tups with Welsh Mules, keeps the EasySuffolk X Ewes and puts them to a Texel. The first 2 pics are of Welsh Mule Hoggs with EasySuffolk lambs, then a Welsh Mule with her EasySuffolk Twins and finally the EasySuffolk X Welsh Mule Ewes with their Texel lambsView attachment 295066 View attachment 295068 View attachment 295070 View attachment 295072

Nice pictures but to be fair most sheep would look well on that grass. A farm manager I worked for after leaving school used to say that 80% of the breeding went in the mouth and the older I get the more I tend to agree with him.

 

[Razor8]

I

More Pics this time from Mark Jarvis near Cowbridge in S Wales. He runs EasySuffolk Tups with Welsh Mules, keeps the EasySuffolk X Ewes and puts them to a Texel. The first 2 pics are of Welsh Mule Hoggs with EasySuffolk lambs, then a Welsh Mule with her EasySuffolk Twins and finally the EasySuffolk X Welsh Mule Ewes with their Texel lambsView attachment 295066 View attachment 295068 View attachment 295070 View attachment 295072

I think even soays would look good coming off that grass and ground!

 

[Jackson4]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but in that last photo don't the three blackfaced ewes on the left have shitty arses even though freshly shorn, whilst the mule on the right doesn't?

Maybe the mule hasnt twigged what grass is yet? It must take a bit of breeding out shitty arses.. brought back some memories of suffolks bottom problems that.

This thread is hellish... i didnt find them any use at all... by the way i breed similar breed myself you can contact me anytime or i've been putting them down from the day i heard about them etc etc waited to see them sold out of a completly different ewe, farm, feeding, cake bag, FA, in spec, tail enders etc etc sold and they made £10/15 less than the top price and now tell everybody even though they are probably not comparable?

I dont doubt narrow shoulders will make a little less as live buying is a bit like the show scene were lots of sheep which would be the same grade dead get more or less on looks, skins, who you are, luck etc. I can tell you my nz texels (not suffolks) sell no differently than the blue texels, charrolais, white uk texels, meatlinc etc here.

PS: toptip i think only Robin at easyrams and his old partner tom pentre foragemaster sell pure nz blood but could be wrong. Some are selling there tups as NZ types.

 

[andybk]

PS: toptip i think only Robin at easyrams and his old partner tom pentre foragemaster sell pure nz blood but could be wrong. Some are selling there tups as NZ types.

yes i have seen plenty sold as NZ suffolks , when in actual fact they are a Nz suffolk ram on their still useless uk suffolk ewes (and make a premium)
trouble is you can get the worst of both worlds not the best .

 

[neilo]

yes i have seen plenty sold as NZ suffolks , when in actual fact they are a Nz suffolk ram on their still useless uk suffolk ewes (and make a premium)

I've seen them sold too, but they certainly didn't make a premium.

Agree it takes more than a generation to breed functionality back into a breed. One cross ain't going to do it, however good the NZ blood claims to be.

 

[andybk]

I've seen them sold too, but they certainly didn't make a premium.

Agree it takes more than a generation to breed functionality back into a breed. One cross ain't going to do it, however good the NZ blood claims to be.

yea i know , but its like the recording for many, its the buzz word that estate managers , like to latch on to in a sale , whether the breeders is committed to it or not doesn't really matter , will impress the boss when he gets back

 

[Top Tip.]

I've seen them sold too, but they certainly didn't make a premium.

Agree it takes more than a generation to breed functionality back into a breed. One cross ain't going to do it, however good the NZ blood claims to be.

From what I have seen of them the NZ Suffolk is too narrow and lacks shape for the UK job but i think the UK breeders will do what they usually do and that is take the best bits(functionality and survivability) and adapt them to our conditions, the same as they have done with other breeds such as the Belgian Blue and beltex just to name two that spring to mind as having been adapted from the original imports to suit our conditions.

 

[Jackson4]

There must be scope to improve grades in a way which still leaves easily born and lively lambs (not powerful looks) though i dont know how they grade compared to uk ones now. There forte is growth off grass and more live and easily born lambs.

There will be plenty who will sell their suffolk x' on here dead which most will kill in the R grade and some U's (off grass) if you can leave them to get on with it and get more lambs born per ewe whilst your off at work and they still fit in the r grade and finish sooner then? I stopped using suffolks when i could hardly get some out assisted, and the big legs and heads didnt push my grades up.

The belgians feel nothing about c sections, in fact its part of how some farm their, feed to hell and get everyone c sectioned feed to hell... are the UK versions less moderate in breeding? I dont know? I know there is constant back and forth of beltex and belgian blue blood, it might just be the feeding and philosophy?

 

[andybk]

There must be scope to improve grades in a way which still leaves easily born and lively lambs (not powerful looks) though i dont know how they grade compared to uk ones now. There forte is growth off grass and more live and easily born lambs.

There will be plenty who will sell their suffolk x' on here dead which most will kill in the R grade and some U's (off grass) if you can leave them to get on with it and get more lambs born per ewe whilst your off at work and they still fit in the r grade and finish sooner then? I stopped using suffolks when i could hardly get some out assisted, and the big legs and heads didnt push my grades up.

The belgians feel nothing about c sections, in fact its part of how some farm their, feed to hell and get everyone c sectioned feed to hell... are the UK versions less moderate in breeding? I dont know? I know there is constant back and forth of beltex and belgian blue blood, it might just be the feeding and philosophy?

yes there is , its called a french charollais , will need lambing indoors though and not for the hills , its why they came here in the first place to do a great job on lowland farms , were great till the british f them up as well , (btw sedgemore easter suck champions yesterday were very short coated char x )

 

[neilo]

yes there is , its called a french charollais , will need lambing indoors though and not for the hills , its why they came here in the first place to do a great job on lowland farms , were great till the british f them up as well , (btw sedgemore easter suck champions yesterday were very short coated char x )

Would they not be the same type of Charollais that got the 'soft' reputation that still prevails today, on this forum as much as anywhere? Personally, I cull anything that resembles those thin skinned, bald headed things these days, without a second thought.

Good luck with your new imports though Andy, they may well fill a niche market for indoor lambing lowland flocks in the South. For mainstream use, they are lacking in too many departments IME.

 

[z.man]

But have any of them actually taken any of the breeds forward ? ie produced rams that will give an easy 45kg lamb off the mother off old pasture in a very short time ?
i would counter that many have actually only taken a good product created in a european market system that requires quality lambs due to no store trade (that also needs functional traits like feet and teeth worked on ) and produced a ram that mostly only looks good on sale day .With poor genetic function , in many cases needing lots of hard feed to get there .

all i can say is what a waste ! all that work for very little net gain . Australians and NZ breeders would laugh their socks off looking at the end result considering the great product they started with

.You are now involved with the Nz breeds cant you see how wide of the mark they really are ?

have to say I agree, what(some) pedigree breeders term as quality isn't driven by the production of the finished article its a bit like trying to put an arm chair in your car yes it looks the part but it doesn't really work,,,,,,,,,, and have to admit I don't really get why signet scans at 21 weeks I would hope by that point 75% of my lambs would have reached target weight/spec and be gone to me sheep production needs to be concentrated in three areas
1 cheap; efficient
2 fast; growth coupled with consistent fleshing not small and fat or large but still thin
3 easy; keeping sheep shouldn't be hard they need good feet good maternal abilities they quickly become unprofitable when you need to spend hours with them, wages are expensive, we should have sheep to keep us we should not be KEEPING THE SHEEP

 

[andybk]

Would they not be the same type of Charollais that got the 'soft' reputation that still prevails today, on this forum as much as anywhere? Personally, I cull anything that resembles those thin skinned, bald headed things these days, without a second thought.

Good luck with your new imports though Andy, they may well fill a niche market for indoor lambing lowland flocks in the South. For mainstream use, they are lacking in too many departments IME.

you know we have always ploughed our own furrow ,
and the clear message back from my customers is they want the old triangle type medium sized sheep with short coats we got them using 30 years ago .not the rouge crosses that some clever charollais breeders started using to make them bigger in the 80s they have soft pink heads and open coats easy to spot , which is where i expect a lot of hardiness issues came from, a proper charollais has a southdown type coat peeling at the edges @Joe will tell you short tight coated types can be every bit as hardy as anything else and hes gene tested them , but as already said lamb them indoors if your worried . The charollais will more than make up for early issues after 24hrs through to killing
the problem with any breed you cant please everyone , and its no good trying to .we see it all the time on here everyones breed can do anything and you end up with compromises and half a job ,add in the showring mentality and a whole breed is damaged
The focus is never on what any of the breeds do best and push that as far as it can go , as we are trying to steal our neighbours thunder all the time . we dont use blackface or swales in the south because they dont fit our needs , similar charollais in the north , if you want to use them up there cross them with a texel (already done with the whole uk breed as far as i can see ) or start your own breed and call them something else dont try and change it and f the whole breed up .
Know your limitations and do the best to get a functional sheep that finishes easily @45 kg , forget all the BS that happens after .
If anyone looking at the pens in builth or kelso think thats what charollais are they are sadly mistaken , they can offer far more than that in the right hands .

 

[neilo]

@Joe will tell you short tight coated types can be every bit as hardy as anything else and hes gene tested them , but as already said lamb them indoors if your worried . The charollais will more than make up for early issues after 24hrs through to killing.

Fyi, the gene test (and I have done some too), doesn't tell you much about hardiness. It is merely about the ability to mobilise brown fat reserves by the newborn lamb. As I've posted before, it doesn't tell you whether the lamb will have enough cover to stand being born in a rainstorm. All of the Charollais I've tested do tend to score very well on it though.

 

[andybk]

Fyi, the gene test (and I have done some too), doesn't tell you much about hardiness. It is merely about the ability to mobilise brown fat reserves by the newborn lamb. As I've posted before, it doesn't tell you whether the lamb will have enough cover to stand being born in a rainstorm. All of the Charollais I've tested do tend to score very well on it though.

fair comment , but you know as i do the hardiness isnt really a big issue on many places its one of those things other breeds have thrown at us for stealing their trade , and breeding more wool on our sheep doesnt make much if any difference at birth .
All breeds have issues romneys shitty arses and prolificacy , suffolks arses and hard lambings ,texel slow growing hard lambing the list goes on , just roll with it and concentrate on what they do well .

 

[sheep breeder]

the charollais lamb with the tight wool always hang the best on the hook and is quicker to finish than the big loose wooled lamb.
the tight fleece wool has higher microns and stays warm and dry. we would rather have a tight wooled sheep any day of the week.

 

[dogandstick]

the charollais lamb with the tight wool always hang the best on the hook and is quicker to finish than the big loose wooled lamb.
the tight fleece wool has higher microns and stays warm and dry. we would rather have a tight wooled sheep any day of the week.

Agree totally. Having bred welsh and speckles for years, I've noted that a "wooly coated" lamb never gets to any decent weights.

 

[dogandstick]

Amazing that a thread on Suffolk V Texel has concentrated more on Charollais!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Nithsdale]

Reading this thread (the posts about the Chars!!) I need a re-education on them... sounds like there's too much bloody variation and different types??

Without seeing them 'in the flesh' how would I pick the right ones for my system

 

[andybk]

Reading this thread (the posts about the Chars!!) I need a re-education on them... sounds like there's too much bloody variation and different types??

Without seeing them 'in the flesh' how would I pick the right ones for my system

lol to many people trying to make them what they aint (improvers lol )
at least with a suffolk or a texel its very difficult to do ,

 

[gatepost]

because you cant rear / and or record a ram under one system and expect his offspring do do the same under another (an average farm) Barley beef ok as thats how many are reared these days ,
acidity in concentrate damages gut villi , joints in the legs teeth ,excess protein damages kindneys / liver then you put him out to grass .
grass is the cheaper option when you include bedding labour etc and prices can be volatile

.Out of interest, I wonder what role circumstances can have in turning on and off genes, I have bought three rams from one breeder now, all have failed to put flesh back on but have grown out, in other words have not coped well with my more commercial system, But all have produced lambs which have thrived on our system and performed as per their expected EBVs, now that may be only due to high protein diets when the rams were being reared damaging their gut but hasn't prevented their lambs from living on grass