Suffolk x ewes and .....?

[sheepmatilda]

Thanks very much for your replies.

 

[ThatsSomeSheep]

Texel

TSS

 

[Nithsdale]

Ah but you see there you've hit the nail on the head.......the Texels are never on offer at the same time because they can't match the growth rate. Therefore its pointless trying to compare apples with pears.

Very true... but my stealthy point is: when there's demand and a limited supply, shite sells

 

[neilo]

The Cheviot would play a bigger role in that, then the Char IMO keeping the lambs blocky and weighing, whilst also keeping their heads clean of wool/topknots.

Scotland isn't Char country because they aren't good enough. If they were, we would all have them... instead the breed is in real decline up here they do well down south because the climate is much kinder.

But. Quality is quality - the lambs should be the same regardless of where they come from (within reason) and paid for, regardless. I mean, apart for Vivers, there are no abattoirs for lambs within an hour in any direction - most are nearly 2 hours away and many go to Wales to be hung up... so it's not like they are kept/killed locally.


Early lambing ewes put onto heavy creep chasing the early sales - I can see why you'd use the Char. Fast growing. If you sell NSL in late April or May buyers will pay, because demand outstrips supply most years. But if you have Texels on offer at the same time, you'd see which the buyers really want...

@sheepwise

 

[neilo]

Hello, ... I read with interest some of the older posts on sheep breeds and everyone seems to have their favourites and not so favourite! I really like the Suffolk as a breed, but it seems that is not necessarily what the market wants? I went to Thame sheep fair and felt that the number of blackface sheep was very much outnumbered by the white face sheep?......I have Suffolk cross ewes and some ewes which are more Suffolk than the cross(as I kept some of the ewe lambs into the flock and crossed with a Suffolk ram)... I think they are getting too Suffolky? and I was thinking about crossing with a Charolais or Texel ram? I only have about 100 ewes, and they are lambed indoors in mid-march April time. I thank you for your thoughts.

Either a Texel or a Charollais over them would produce a vastly better lamb than using another Suffolk IME. If you want them away fast, then Charollais, if you're willing to wait a few more weeks, but perhaps have some demand for breeding ewe lambs, then Texel.

To those suggesting the use of a Beltex or Cheviot over Suffolk & 3/4 Suffolk ewes in Southern England, why oh why oh why would you ever want to keep a big, high maintenance cost ewe, then put a small, slow growing ram over them? Please can someone explain how this could ever pay.

 

[harperfarmer]

Very true... but my stealthy point is: when there's demand and a limited supply, shite sells

So where's my incentive to breed "quality"?I've taken great pleasure in selling my "shite" this year. I might even be tempted to give more than £150 for a tup this year.....

 

[Nithsdale]

So where's my incentive to breed "quality"?I've taken great pleasure in selling my "shite" this year. I might even be tempted to give more than £150 for a tup this year.....

Steady!! Don't go breaking the bank just yet... I think every fecker and their brother will be trying the early lamb job next year

 

[harperfarmer]

I'm dropping numbers right back. £100/lamb average this year can only mean next year will be a disappointment!

 

[Danvd]

Extremely surprised to see people saying a charollais tup wouldn't suit Suffolk x ewes. In a lot of lowland scenarios this is the cross that would supply the vast majority of finished spring lambs through April/May/June (sold live).

Lots of Charolais onto suffolk mules sold at ashford market. A good cross, as is the texel onto suffolk mule.

 

[David.]

Charolais on a Suff x grow like stink.
In favour of the Texel, you do end up with a ewe lamb that can be kept on.

 

[sheepwise]

The Cheviot would play a bigger role in that, then the Char IMO keeping the lambs blocky and weighing, whilst also keeping their heads clean of wool/topknots.

Scotland isn't Char country because they aren't good enough. If they were, we would all have them... instead the breed is in real decline up here they do well down south because the climate is much kinder.

But. Quality is quality - the lambs should be the same regardless of where they come from (within reason) and paid for, regardless. I mean, apart for Vivers, there are no abattoirs for lambs within an hour in any direction - most are nearly 2 hours away and many go to Wales to be hung up... so it's not like they are kept/killed locally.


Early lambing ewes put onto heavy creep chasing the early sales - I can see why you'd use the Char. Fast growing. If you sell NSL in late April or May buyers will pay, because demand outstrips supply most years. But if you have Texels on offer at the same time, you'd see which the buyers really want...

Since I have been tagged by @neilo I will reply to this.Originally I wasn;t going to bother as I didn't want to start more breed bashing arguments.However, I think you are being a bit harsh @Nithsdale Farmer when you say that Charollais are not good enough for Scotland. Annually we will breed and finish around 2000 Charollais cross lambs on our farms with the vast majority of these lambed outside in March and April. All these lambs are sold deadweight through our marketing group and we aim to average over 20kg carcase weight.On several occasions over the years, we have won the trophy or been in the top three producers for carcase quality touching 90% E U R 2/3L grades. Quite a few of our lambs have gone to Vivers this season with very few falling outwith their Grade 1 spec.Although given the fact Vivers are at present trying to steal lambs by being so far behind on price I don't see many more going their way. For the record we also use a few texel tups and I certainly wouldn't knock that breed because as you say they produce a very hardy and marketable lamb (especially for the live ring) although probably about 2 weeks slower in reaching marketable weight on our farms.I would agree that live markets up our way are dominated by white faced lambs with beltex sired lambs topping the trade per kg most weeks.In fact I would go as far as to say that if your main aim is to top the market regularly then a beltex tup and probably texel cross ewes would be essential.However,everybody tries to work with a breed that suits their system and I know that almost all our customers for Charollais tups will be selling their lambs on the hook.
We have a flock of 50 pedigree Charollais ewes and breed all our own tups for our commercial ewes with several shearlimgs sold ex farm to repeat customers.Last year we were sold out of tups by the middle of September as we had a couple of customers from the past return after being tempted to try beltex but being disappointed by their slow growth.
So although I agree that Charollais sired lambs have never been as numerous in Scotland as south of the border,I certainly don't think that they are in serious decline.

 

[Nithsdale]

Since I have been tagged by @neilo I will reply to this.Originally I wasn;t going to bother as I didn't want to start more breed bashing arguments.However, I think you are being a bit harsh @Nithsdale Farmer when you say that Charollais are not good enough for Scotland. Annually we will breed and finish around 2000 Charollais cross lambs on our farms with the vast majority of these lambed outside in March and April. All these lambs are sold deadweight through our marketing group and we aim to average over 20kg carcase weight.On several occasions over the years, we have won the trophy or been in the top three producers for carcase quality touching 90% E U R 2/3L grades. Quite a few of our lambs have gone to Vivers this season with very few falling outwith their Grade 1 spec.Although given the fact Vivers are at present trying to steal lambs by being so far behind on price I don't see many more going their way. For the record we also use a few texel tups and I certainly wouldn't knock that breed because as you say they produce a very hardy and marketable lamb (especially for the live ring) although probably about 2 weeks slower in reaching marketable weight on our farms.I would agree that live markets up our way are dominated by white faced lambs with beltex sired lambs topping the trade per kg most weeks.In fact I would go as far as to say that if your main aim is to top the market regularly then a beltex tup and probably texel cross ewes would be essential.However,everybody tries to work with a breed that suits their system and I know that almost all our customers for Charollais tups will be selling their lambs on the hook.
We have a flock of 50 pedigree Charollais ewes and breed all our own tups for our commercial ewes with several shearlimgs sold ex farm to repeat customers.Last year we were sold out of tups by the middle of September as we had a couple of customers from the past return after being tempted to try beltex but being disappointed by their slow growth.
So although I agree that Charollais sired lambs have never been as numerous in Scotland as south of the border,I certainly don't think that they are in serious decline.

I welcome your reply. Not wanting a breed slagging either. My initial post/comment was, if you want to sell live I wouldn't chose a Char for the op. A comment I stand by. Your end market needs considered before any venture. Something which yourself is conceding they are not best for going live. So I don't see any issue with what I said.

I think you'd always get a return purchaser if they tried a Beltex and wanted fast growing lambs... Quality yes, but very very slow. On growth rates alone the 2 breeds can not be compared at all, and shouldn't be.

I was possibly a bit harsh on Chars, aye. But, unless the breeds ram sales are mostly all farm to farm (across the country, not just your own) - ram usage must have declined in the last 10-12 years? Correct me if I'm mistaken but there are far fewer at Kelso these days, and ringside is more quiet/less buyers. It is the only notable Char sale in Scotland, other than the society sale at Lanark?... For me that only says 1 of 2 things:

1. Tups are either serving vastly more ewes each and living a lot longer, reducing buyer demand.

Or

2. Less ewes are being put to Char tups, reducing buyer demand.

Those who use/like/want the breed will always return for more. And if those buyers get on fine and are happy, then great - but they are not for everyone.

 

[CopperBeech]

For mature suffolk x ewes, i'd want a quick growing, lively terminal. I'd probably opt for either char or a composite, something like meat link etc.

Lambed a load of ewe lambs to charmoise and southdown and been pleased so far.

Have a ton of nz suffolk x mule ewe lambs for sale if any one wants any lol. Currently killing them, the money is too good.

 

[S J H]

Either a Texel or a Charollais over them would produce a vastly better lamb than using another Suffolk IME. If you want them away fast, then Charollais, if you're willing to wait a few more weeks, but perhaps have some demand for breeding ewe lambs, then Texel.

To those suggesting the use of a Beltex or Cheviot over Suffolk & 3/4 Suffolk ewes in Southern England, why oh why oh why would you ever want to keep a big, high maintenance cost ewe, then put a small, slow growing ram over them? Please can someone explain how this could ever pay.

I didn't suggest beltex, but if the OP ask lambing late, then they may be sold as stores in the autumn, or sold as hoggets, where I suspect the beltex will get a premium?

 

[CharcoalWally]

Really a bit surprised to see that members are suggesting that Charollais X lambs won't sell through the live ring.

In my years of working with the breed that's how mine were traded and they always performed really well through this system - always selling in the top bracket to return buyers who looked for more of them.

So for whatever reason you may look for to discard the breed , I wouldn't worry about this one.

 

[Ysgythan]

Which once again, just shows how backwards and stupid the UK sheep trade is.

And people wonder why less and less people are selling live. It's an absolute joke!

Err, no, dealers are there to make money. It's offloading any old crap dead which keeps the price back as they accept everything. Processors want a certain product consistently. They don't like things for a reason, lack of profitability, not religion. They will have seen many more brown faced top knot lambs killed than you.

 

[S J H]

Err, no, dealers are there to make money. It's offloading any old crap dead which keeps the price back as they accept everything. Processors want a certain product consistently. They don't like things for a reason, lack of profitability, not religion. They will have seen many more brown faced top knot lambs killed than you.

Iirc 17 accounts buying at market last week, so there's plenty of competiton, i can't see much not making its money.

 

[Hummin-Cummins]

We run suffolk cross ewes and put a good texel over them lambs seem to do us well had charollais tups in the past but found a good long texel does us better!
Any good continental tup would be fine id of said

 

[Nithsdale]

I didn't suggest beltex, but if the OP ask lambing late, then they may be sold as stores in the autumn, or sold as hoggets, where I suspect the beltex will get a premium?

It was myself who mentioned, then discredited in the same sentence, using a Beltex. If certain people actually read what was written

Really a bit surprised to see that members are suggesting that Charollais X lambs won't sell through the live ring.

In my years of working with the breed that's how mine were traded and they always performed really well through this system - always selling in the top bracket to return buyers who looked for more of them.

So for whatever reason you may look for to discard the breed , I wouldn't worry about this one.

Did you use them on SuffolkX ewes?

Even a Char breeder is admitting selling them live isn't the best idea...

 

[sheepwise]

It was myself who mentioned, then discredited in the same sentence, using a Beltex. If certain people actually read what was written


Did you use them on SuffolkX ewes?

Even a Char breeder is admitting selling them live isn't the best idea...

I never said selling them live was a bad idea it's just that we prefer to sell all our lambs deadweight including our texels and hill wedders.