Sustainable Vegan Farming System ??

[cows sh#t me to tears]

The vast majority of people are just like bindis , they serve no purpose are ivasive, can populate the most desolate regions and are painful to deal with. Vegans are just another variant

 

[CornishTone]

Some would say Bindis are pioneer species?!?!?![emoji6][emoji57]

Although I do like the analogy!

 

[oil barron]

So can all the crops needed to provide a vegan diet be grown in the uk ,serious question and not being sarcastic?

1000 acre farm. 500 acres of cereals, pulses and oilseeds. 450 acres to feed a bio digester. 50 acres of glass house for exotic vegetables.

On an upland grass only farm it probably looks like 80% of the farm making electric via solar or bio digestor and 20 acres of glass house

 

[graham99]

Maybe, it really depends how flawed their thinking is.
Obviously our livestock are simply amazing, perfect creations for recycling plant biomass back into the soil, raising cation exchange capacity and so forth - but adding nutrients doesn't achieve that, at all.
For example, we have added nothing here other than more animals and more litter, our SOM has risen from 8.9% to 11.1%, the pH has gone from 5.8 to 6.1, and the CEC has gone from 13.34 to 16.7 - this is in two years, simply from a change in management practices.
As a direct result, all the conventionally testable "base saturations" have skyrocketed, which is bad news for the fertiliser salespeople, because it demonstrates how flawed the thinking is - but it also shows me quite clearly that the soil is capable of regenerating itself, without putting stuff in - in fact, I have about 300 tons of silage and 300 tons of compost taken out, at the present point in time.
It's therefore, (to my mind, based on what has occurred here in a short time) completely false to assume that fertilisers help, or that animals are absolutely fundamental to soil regeneration, they simply help people be further removed from the fact that we are animals too.

We can still be biodigesters too, return our wastes to the Earth, just as ruminants do - it just requires changes to occur to how we think and what we do.

For the record, I still eat a lot of meat, I still crap in a toilet and flush it away, and I still drive a vehicle.... but every 'conventional thought train' is at once too simple and yet too complex simultaneously.
Mankind has really been led up the garden path by listening to science and not critically evaluating what they tell us.

Usually it's down to money...

are you sure its science that is the problem ,i think banks ,borrowing and capital gains are the main cause and record low interest rates

 

[Kiwi Pete]

are you sure its science that is the problem ,i think banks ,borrowing and capital gains are the main cause and record low interest rates

Who funds the scientists?
It's a compounding issue - without all the interference, the human population would be far smaller, land would be cheaper, housing more affordable.... a sheep's worst enemy is another sheep, but wolves hunt in packs

 

[MRT]

So can all the crops needed to provide a vegan diet be grown in the uk ,serious question and not being sarcastic?

Not the current vegan diets chosen with the current varieties of plant we have and tech we have - no. Not even close, but never say never, there are people out there evilly working on it so we can find ever more twisted ways of not starving the virtuous yet chronically ignorant masses

 

[graham99]

Who funds the scientists?
It's a compounding issue - without all the interference, the human population would be far smaller, land would be cheaper, housing more affordable.... a sheep's worst enemy is another sheep, but wolves hunt in packs

very well said .
so CAN we agree the banker's find all sorts of ways, to keep us as slaves,
that the general population has to pay for.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

very well said .
so CAN we agree the banker's find all sorts of ways, to keep us as slaves,
that the general population has to pay for.

Oh, yeah.

It's always been "who owes who", you only need look where the investment is.

Remember the best individuals for the GDP aren't the ones doing the most work or making the most money; more like someone with a debilitative condition that requires round the clock nursing, medicines, and ramps built - these are several times better than someone able to work, because 8 people are able to work instead of one.

And so it goes on, an industry "kept in business" springs to mind as a great big cash-cow for the bwànkers and industry - farming the farmers..
Ten doing the job of one

 

[Old McDonald]

Simple question "How would vegans farm sustainably"?????
Where can I find the Vegan "Sustainable Farming Cropping Rotation"?
Oops I for got Vegans do not want to create CO2 emissions so their diet must be produced in the UK.

WARNING THIS IS AN EXTREMELY LONG RESPONSE.

The following is my answer to your question. I wrote it about 10 years ago as part of a book I published. I may well be wrong, but I have not seen anybody else come up with a suggestion:-

Just to show that I am willing to try to help those who want to grow food by alternative methods to my own I have given some thought to setting up a vegan farm on the Clifton Park System principle. I felt I had to do this because despite my own views I accept that some vegans might want to produce their own food – and sales to other vegans could be a lucrative business.

I regret I cannot advise a suitable location in many countries of the world, simply because I have only farmed in four. Whilst a coastal, but not tropical, area of Australia would suffice, as would a coastal or near coastal area in Portugal, any interested vegans will need to assess possible areas in other countries for themselves. It will also be necessary to consider possible alternative crops. Unfortunately therefore I need to assume the farm is to be in Britain. Since there will be no livestock on this farm we need all land to be cultivatable, and as we might also be looking to grow a wide range of crops, it will need to be in a softer part of England, or, unlikely but possibly, an extremely favoured (climatically) part of one of the other countries. Size is not critical for the purpose of the exercise, let us just assume it is at least big enough for everyone to recognise it as a farm capable of growing market garden scale crops. There is no upper size limit, and the suggestions are adaptable to a small acreage, but undoubtedly with less efficiency of production. We will further assume that it has been well maintained in the past so the land is in a good state of fertility, and that the new vegan owner has the knowledge and experience to operate the wide range of machinery and equipment required. It should be noted that this would be a labour intensive farm even with a full complement of modern equipment.

It is of paramount importance to maintain the OM content throughout the farm, so I would split it into eight equal sized blocks and attempt to crop for four years and have four years in pasture in each rotation. It may not be possible in a stockless situation, so longer in ley and less cropping may be necessary, with perhaps an increase in the number of blocks, but we will try 4 + 4. I say blocks because to equalise the size of the areas there might be a different number of fields in each block. That is not important so long as they remain within their own one eighth.

Additionally, since I would want to avoid buying nitrogen fertilisers if at all possible I would try having the pasture phases as a pure stand of white clover. I have no experience of using just clover for this purpose, and I doubt if many other people have either, but it is worth attempting if you are a vegan. White clover will persist easily for the time required, it forms a good ground cover and roots deeply. It is also easy to keep clover mowed short (sow a prostrate variety) as it would need to be in order to allow the mowings to be dragged underground by our friends rather than smother the living plants. It is also easy to kill out for the cropping phases. It would be necessary to buy any nutrients that soil testing would show are required, and also of course to replace those used by crops that are grown. This is to ensure it remains a sustainable system. I would prefer to test every four years, so testing before and after the pasture phase would give an indication of nutrients removed during each phase. I would make as much compost as I possibly could.

What crops are grown will determine the machinery and equipment required. The first decision is probably whether or not to grow rape for fuel oil - the reason for choosing a location where it can be grown. A lot of fuel will be used in the constant mowing of the pastures phases in addition to the cultivations and harvesting of the arable crops. I think I would grow rape, partly to be self-sufficient in fuel (some tractors can be run on straight vegetable oil) and partly to avoid using fossil fuel. A reasonable crop might leave a surplus to sell so there could still be some human food derived from the crop. The rape would be the first crop after clover, and if I did not grow it I would make the first crop oats. Perhaps half and half might even be a better idea. The reason for using these two crops is that I would use a grassland mouldboard plough to turn in the clover, ploughing exactly as I described earlier, burying the clover top growth at the bottom of the furrow and leaving it undisturbed during the first year of cropping. Both the rape and oats would benefit from the accumulated nitrogen from the clover growth. I would avoid growing wheat because under British conditions it is usually necessary to apply large additional amounts of nitrogen for wheat to reach the higher protein levels needed to make bread quality flour. A failure to reach this standard often means the wheat goes for stock feed, which vegans would not want to happen.

Throughout the cropping phase there will be a decreasing level of available soil nitrogen each year, so I would have years two to four growing crops that more or less allowed for this. I would avoid the very high nitrogen demanders such as cabbage and the oriental brassicas and some of the possibilities below are more likely to be grown in the kitchen garden. This is where I would have all perennial crops including fruit and nuts. Again another reason to choose a “soft” area – there are not a lot of orchards or nut trees north of the Roman Wall. Potatoes would be a good choice for year two, spreading the disease risk by growing some earlies as well as maincrop. I would use half my available land for the potatoes and use half my available compost on them. Leeks, all the leaf beets and beetroot fit in here too, and if you had the labour force available to harvest them, and the market, you could grow some on a field scale.

The third year I would grow only early and second early potatoes on the land that did not grow potatoes the previous year and use the other half of my compost on these. This way one quarter of the cropping land is in potatoes each year – spreading the machinery over a long season. There is always a market for quality potatoes, they will use the compost to best advantage, and the whole area receives some compost in either the second or third cropping year. In year three the other half could take most of the non-cabbage brassicas plus squashes, pumpkins and lettuce. Year four is for the lowest nitrogen demanders – a big range, beans, all alliums except leeks, and all the root crops except potatoes and beets. Even less demanding of nitrogen are garlic and peas. Peas needing probably the least available N of all crops. Then back to pasture.

It might be noted that I have avoided other oilseed crops than rape. The yield of the others is low and the area in which they can be grown is more restrictive. I would particularly avoid soybeans, even those varieties with a claim that they can be grown in Britain. I would, as now, shun soybean products – with the one proviso that from time to time we make use of a very small amount of Oriental sauces that contain some soya. I have seen too much adverse research concerning the use of these and other forms of industrialised fats like margarine. I have an inbuilt aversion to any food that needs a manufacturing process to make it edible. I also point blank refuse to consume food that is fortified with vitamins or minerals, and would never take supplements. I want my food to provide all I need. Simple methods like making wine or butter I have no problem with. For fats and oils I would stick with olive oil, either Extra Virgin or Virgin, I am quite ambivalent about using either, and whilst I admit to a bias, I find the Portuguese varieties produce an oil more to my taste than the Italian, Greek or Spanish varieties, although accept that other people may find otherwise.

Whilst I do believe this would work for individual vegan farmers, and using correct fertilisation techniques would make the yields undoubtedly better than organic farming and more on a par with conventional farming, it is still a low productivity farm because the land is only producing food for half the time. The same system with grazed livestock produces food every year, so the vegan system is not a good one for feeding the whole world.

 

[Pilatus]

WARNING THIS IS AN EXTREMELY LONG RESPONSE.

The following is my answer to your question. I wrote it about 10 years ago as part of a book I published. I may well be wrong, but I have not seen anybody else come up with a suggestion:-

Just to show that I am willing to try to help those who want to grow food by alternative methods to my own I have given some thought to setting up a vegan farm on the Clifton Park System principle. I felt I had to do this because despite my own views I accept that some vegans might want to produce their own food – and sales to other vegans could be a lucrative business.

I regret I cannot advise a suitable location in many countries of the world, simply because I have only farmed in four. Whilst a coastal, but not tropical, area of Australia would suffice, as would a coastal or near coastal area in Portugal, any interested vegans will need to assess possible areas in other countries for themselves. It will also be necessary to consider possible alternative crops. Unfortunately therefore I need to assume the farm is to be in Britain. Since there will be no livestock on this farm we need all land to be cultivatable, and as we might also be looking to grow a wide range of crops, it will need to be in a softer part of England, or, unlikely but possibly, an extremely favoured (climatically) part of one of the other countries. Size is not critical for the purpose of the exercise, let us just assume it is at least big enough for everyone to recognise it as a farm capable of growing market garden scale crops. There is no upper size limit, and the suggestions are adaptable to a small acreage, but undoubtedly with less efficiency of production. We will further assume that it has been well maintained in the past so the land is in a good state of fertility, and that the new vegan owner has the knowledge and experience to operate the wide range of machinery and equipment required. It should be noted that this would be a labour intensive farm even with a full complement of modern equipment.

It is of paramount importance to maintain the OM content throughout the farm, so I would split it into eight equal sized blocks and attempt to crop for four years and have four years in pasture in each rotation. It may not be possible in a stockless situation, so longer in ley and less cropping may be necessary, with perhaps an increase in the number of blocks, but we will try 4 + 4. I say blocks because to equalise the size of the areas there might be a different number of fields in each block. That is not important so long as they remain within their own one eighth.

Additionally, since I would want to avoid buying nitrogen fertilisers if at all possible I would try having the pasture phases as a pure stand of white clover. I have no experience of using just clover for this purpose, and I doubt if many other people have either, but it is worth attempting if you are a vegan. White clover will persist easily for the time required, it forms a good ground cover and roots deeply. It is also easy to keep clover mowed short (sow a prostrate variety) as it would need to be in order to allow the mowings to be dragged underground by our friends rather than smother the living plants. It is also easy to kill out for the cropping phases. It would be necessary to buy any nutrients that soil testing would show are required, and also of course to replace those used by crops that are grown. This is to ensure it remains a sustainable system. I would prefer to test every four years, so testing before and after the pasture phase would give an indication of nutrients removed during each phase. I would make as much compost as I possibly could.

What crops are grown will determine the machinery and equipment required. The first decision is probably whether or not to grow rape for fuel oil - the reason for choosing a location where it can be grown. A lot of fuel will be used in the constant mowing of the pastures phases in addition to the cultivations and harvesting of the arable crops. I think I would grow rape, partly to be self-sufficient in fuel (some tractors can be run on straight vegetable oil) and partly to avoid using fossil fuel. A reasonable crop might leave a surplus to sell so there could still be some human food derived from the crop. The rape would be the first crop after clover, and if I did not grow it I would make the first crop oats. Perhaps half and half might even be a better idea. The reason for using these two crops is that I would use a grassland mouldboard plough to turn in the clover, ploughing exactly as I described earlier, burying the clover top growth at the bottom of the furrow and leaving it undisturbed during the first year of cropping. Both the rape and oats would benefit from the accumulated nitrogen from the clover growth. I would avoid growing wheat because under British conditions it is usually necessary to apply large additional amounts of nitrogen for wheat to reach the higher protein levels needed to make bread quality flour. A failure to reach this standard often means the wheat goes for stock feed, which vegans would not want to happen.

Throughout the cropping phase there will be a decreasing level of available soil nitrogen each year, so I would have years two to four growing crops that more or less allowed for this. I would avoid the very high nitrogen demanders such as cabbage and the oriental brassicas and some of the possibilities below are more likely to be grown in the kitchen garden. This is where I would have all perennial crops including fruit and nuts. Again another reason to choose a “soft” area – there are not a lot of orchards or nut trees north of the Roman Wall. Potatoes would be a good choice for year two, spreading the disease risk by growing some earlies as well as maincrop. I would use half my available land for the potatoes and use half my available compost on them. Leeks, all the leaf beets and beetroot fit in here too, and if you had the labour force available to harvest them, and the market, you could grow some on a field scale.

The third year I would grow only early and second early potatoes on the land that did not grow potatoes the previous year and use the other half of my compost on these. This way one quarter of the cropping land is in potatoes each year – spreading the machinery over a long season. There is always a market for quality potatoes, they will use the compost to best advantage, and the whole area receives some compost in either the second or third cropping year. In year three the other half could take most of the non-cabbage brassicas plus squashes, pumpkins and lettuce. Year four is for the lowest nitrogen demanders – a big range, beans, all alliums except leeks, and all the root crops except potatoes and beets. Even less demanding of nitrogen are garlic and peas. Peas needing probably the least available N of all crops. Then back to pasture.

It might be noted that I have avoided other oilseed crops than rape. The yield of the others is low and the area in which they can be grown is more restrictive. I would particularly avoid soybeans, even those varieties with a claim that they can be grown in Britain. I would, as now, shun soybean products – with the one proviso that from time to time we make use of a very small amount of Oriental sauces that contain some soya. I have seen too much adverse research concerning the use of these and other forms of industrialised fats like margarine. I have an inbuilt aversion to any food that needs a manufacturing process to make it edible. I also point blank refuse to consume food that is fortified with vitamins or minerals, and would never take supplements. I want my food to provide all I need. Simple methods like making wine or butter I have no problem with. For fats and oils I would stick with olive oil, either Extra Virgin or Virgin, I am quite ambivalent about using either, and whilst I admit to a bias, I find the Portuguese varieties produce an oil more to my taste than the Italian, Greek or Spanish varieties, although accept that other people may find otherwise.

Whilst I do believe this would work for individual vegan farmers, and using correct fertilisation techniques would make the yields undoubtedly better than organic farming and more on a par with conventional farming, it is still a low productivity farm because the land is only producing food for half the time. The same system with grazed livestock produces food every year, so the vegan system is not a good one for feeding the whole world.

So if the human population of the plant were to turn vegan, could the planet sustain a vegan diet??

 

[graham99]

So if the human population of the plant were to turn vegan, could the planet sustain a vegan diet??

no.
60% of the human boimass was fished from the sea .the rest from the land.
thats why i laugh at people who to save whales and seals.
if they want to save them ,they should turn them selves into whale food.

 

[Old McDonald]

So if the human population of the plant were to turn vegan, could the planet sustain a vegan diet??

My final sentence ends "so the vegan system is not a good one for feeding the whole world." This was based on the lack of productivity under the rotation I suggested. My answer to your question is - No, it cannot. Happy to discuss it with anyone who disagrees.

 

[primmiemoo]

So if the human population of the plant were to turn vegan, could the planet sustain a vegan diet??

No.

Gaia would shrug her shoulders after a while, and let all humans go.

 

[CornishTone]

So if the human population of the plant were to turn vegan, could the planet sustain a vegan diet??

No!

Pete has suggested that if humans were able to close the nutrient loop and return all their waste nutrients to the soil from whence they came, it could be done.

Realistically though, it’s not practical to do so as it would mean, essentially, living like animals over an extended period and I’ve yet to meet a vegan that is willing to give up their TV, iPhone and Vegan Starbucks coffee, and on top of all that, sh1t on their veggie patch once a day!

Animals perform a function that has been part of the nutrient cycle for millenia, converting calories we can’t eat, into calories we can eat, whilst at the same time moving essential nutrients around the system. We can no more ignore that than we can ignore our own need for water. Soon enough the world will realise this!