"Tax is a Moral Issue"

exmoor dave

Member
Location
exmoor, uk
Yes, kind of - that is now 10K, I think. Nobody is expecting you to live on 10K though but it is seen as a contribution towards basic living costs. It would still be unfair to tax people on 15K the same rate on their 5K as it would those on 50K on their 40K - a flat rate of tax would only be 'fair' if everybody got paid a living wage and got that ammount tax free.

but no one would ever agree on what amount a living wage should be.......i'd say home +essentials
but many seem to think a massive tv, sky and every electric gizmo under the sun is "essential".

I simply can't see how it is right that just cause you earn more than a set level (which I don't get anywhere near :() you should pay 40%....40%!!! of your wages/income in tax, its mental!, hell its bad enough paying 30% (incl NI...which also added to the 40% is even more depressing)
 

SteveHants

Member
Livestock Farmer
but no one would ever agree on what amount a living wage should be.......i'd say home +essentials
but many seem to think a massive tv, sky and every electric gizmo under the sun is "essential".

I simply can't see how it is right that just cause you earn more than a set level (which I don't get anywhere near :() you should pay 40%....40%!!! of your wages/income in tax, its mental!, hell its bad enough paying 30% (incl NI...which also added to the 40% is even more depressing)

You don't - you pay 40% of your income over a certain threshold. You are still not taxed on your first 10K etc.
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Working hard. Different things to different people.

Hauling coal out a mine. £25,000
Spouting tripe on the radio. £100,000
Kicking a bag of wind round a field. £1,000,000

All highly subjective ain't it?
 

SteveHants

Member
Livestock Farmer
that's what I meant! (y)

no tax 10k<

20% +NI on the next 10k-35k (??)

then 40% +NI on everything 35k+

then doesn't it go up to 50% +NI at something like 150K

So; in reality you are paying far less than your imagined 40% gross.

I've never seen a person earning over the threshold who who has genuine want - however, I have seen plenty in the lower tax brackets who are, so it doesn't concern me that much, I'm more concerned at those going without the basics.
 

Goweresque

Member
Location
North Wilts
Then why do farmers sell land for farming? Plenty do.

The revenue from those currently earning more than 50 k is not actually that great as a proportion of tax receipts, which is why governments don't bother raising taxes on high earners. When I worked for GEC, no productive employ was paid anything like 50k, that is workers, engineers, project managers, salesmen and other folk who actually did the work and got the orders in and delivered the goods Those in the layers above, who really served no useful purpose as far as the business was concerned were paid a lot more and if they had left the country, GEC might still have been a big manufacturer and employer today.

I just don't get this money grabbing attitude. It is what one can do for others that really brings satisfaction, not what can amass in excess for oneself.

No, utterly incorrect. The top 10% of earners pay more than 50% of all income tax, 55% to be exact. A top 10% income means you earn just over £50K. Figures here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17397199 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom

Thus your policy would mean at the very least (ignoring the fact that huge numbers would leave the country and take their capital and income with them) a 55% drop in income tax receipts, or 55% of £153bn, which is £84bn, in one fell swoop. Which is approximately 12% of ALL government spending every year. Or about 75% of the NHS budget. Gone. Good luck replacing it :)
 

exmoor dave

Member
Location
exmoor, uk
So; in reality you are paying far less than your imagined 40% gross.

I've never seen a person earning over the threshold who who has genuine want - however, I have seen plenty in the lower tax brackets who are, so it doesn't concern me that much, I'm more concerned at those going without the basics
.

fag packet maths on a 50k wage

10k at zero
25k at 20% = 5k
15k at 40% = 6k
NI on 40k at 11% = 4.4k

(apologies if any of the above is wrong, maths isn't my strong point)

total 15.4k = 31% of wages paid in tax, so yes abit less than 40% headline figure....but still a lot of money!

mind a 50k wage is a lot of money and yes agree we should be more concerned about people going with out the basics at the lower end, which I guess is where a living wage of sorts comes in.

but what figure a living wage?
 

Goweresque

Member
Location
North Wilts
Working hard. Different things to different people.

Hauling coal out a mine. £25,000
Spouting tripe on the radio. £100,000
Kicking a bag of wind round a field. £1,000,000

All highly subjective ain't it?

This country is massively reliant on taxes paid by the likes of those Premiership prima donnas. The Premier League wage bill is £1.6bn/year, of which at least 40%,probably close to 45%, ends up with HM Treasury. Thats around £650m just from perhaps 500 people. Thats £1.3m in tax EACH. You should be on your knees thanking Rupert Murdoch for financing the PL via his Sky channel. It would take 130000 taxpayers earning £25k each to raise that £650m of tax revenue.
 

SteveHants

Member
Livestock Farmer
So; in reality you are paying far less than your imagined 40% gross.

I've never seen a person earning over the threshold who who has genuine want - however, I have seen plenty in the lower tax brackets who are, so it doesn't concern me that much, I'm more concerned at those going without the basics
.

fag packet maths on a 50k wage

10k at zero
25k at 20% = 5k
15k at 40% = 6k
NI on 40k at 11% = 4.4k

(apologies if any of the above is wrong, maths isn't my strong point)

total 15.4k = 31% of wages paid in tax, so yes abit less than 40% headline figure....but still a lot of money!

mind a 50k wage is a lot of money and yes agree we should be more concerned about people going with out the basics at the lower end, which I guess is where a living wage of sorts comes in.

but what figure a living wage?

Depends on where you are - we live in a two bed semi, rented. My missus makes the average wage (22K ish), this is the first year the sheep will pay me something (started 2011/12 in earnest so it aint too bad). We don't save any money and constantly have to top up her wages with savings - and no, I dont have a big flatscreen. My biggest luxury is the occasional (once a month, maybe?) night in the pub. so I reckon it must be 23k (taxed) for a small family, at least.
 

pycoed

Member
Of course taxation is a moral issue: both the payment AND the spending of that taxation are governed by morals.
I spent all my working life being taxed under PAYE, so I had no option but to pay the "right" amount of tax, but I have every sympathy with those who seek to minimise their tax payments where they can. Why? because I believe that the government over the last decade or so particularly has broken the covenant that it holds from its constituents to spend that money "morally" in accordance with the wishes of the nation.e.g. we have entered wars on the other side of the world that do not represent the British interest, we have not been allowed a vote on Europe, we've had unfettered immigration as a deliberate act to change the social fabric of the country, our armed forces no longer are fully capable of defending the realm, state education is a disgrace etc etc. Generally, the government does what IT wants regardless of the mood of the nation. Government is way too big: parish council district council, county or unitary council, WAG (spit!), UK parliament all of which are largely subservient to Europe which hasn't managed an audited set of accounts since Gawd knows when. Is this how we want our taxes spent?
By & large, the taxpayer must feel that his taxes are being put to good use for the most part, in order that he stump up with good grace. I would suggest that the wholesale misuse of exchequer money means that if you can get away with it, then you WILL avoid paying tax. HS2 Anyone?
 

Walterp

Member
Location
Pembrokeshire
Of course taxation is a moral issue: both the payment AND the spending of that taxation are governed by morals.

It may have been, once, but I'd hesitate to agree that morality has any connection to government now: isn't that the point at which Mrs Thatcher (who was nothing if not a highly moral - if not moralistic - politician) was different from those that preceded her? And, of course, those that succeeded her?

To me, it explains just why some people were so fervent supporters of her - some of her policies may have been deeply suspect, but no one ever thought that she was deeply suspect. Her morality was clear, which was perhaps her main appeal. In a morally-compromised World, I can see how that type of certainty would've seemed very attractive. (Cue Mr Tony Benn: 'She meant what she said, and said what she meant...')

And now, without either Mrs Thatcher or morals, it's very difficult to perceive what, exactly, is the nation's guiding principles.

Clue: there aren't any.
 
The TAX System Explained in BEER


Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100..
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7.
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.

So, that's what they decided to do...........

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball.
"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20". Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.
So the first four men were unaffected.
They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men? The paying customers?

How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realised that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).
The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33% saving).
The seventh now paid £5 instead of £7 (28% saving).
The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 (25% saving).
The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 (22% saving).
The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% saving).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a pound out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man.
He pointed to the tenth man,"but he got £10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a pound too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works.

The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up any more. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

The Socialists need to understand this basic principle.
 

Qman

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Near Derby
This country is massively reliant on taxes paid by the likes of those Premiership prima donnas. The Premier League wage bill is £1.6bn/year, of which at least 40%,probably close to 45%, ends up with HM Treasury. Thats around £650m just from perhaps 500 people. Thats £1.3m in tax EACH. You should be on your knees thanking Rupert Murdoch for financing the PL via his Sky channel. It would take 130000 taxpayers earning £25k each to raise that £650m of tax revenue.


Gower, I think that most premier league players get their money payed into a company so they only pay 20%. I wonder where the foreign players money goes.

People keep mentioning 40% higher tax rate, surely this is 45% having come down from 50%.

In my opinion we are taxed too much, people can spend their own money more wisely than the government. They should lower direct taxes to encourage people into work and to work harder and look after themselves and their families. But of course the socialists like to take most of your money and then give it back to folk who do as they are told. I include Call me Dave in this because he isn't a proper Tory.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
Gower, I think that most premier league players get their money payed into a company so they only pay 20%. I wonder where the foreign players money goes.

People keep mentioning 40% higher tax rate, surely this is 45% having come down from 50%.

In my opinion we are taxed too much, people can spend their own money more wisely than the government. They should lower direct taxes to encourage people into work and to work harder and look after themselves and their families. But of course the socialists like to take most of your money and then give it back to folk who do as they are told. I include Call me Dave in this because he isn't a proper Tory.

40% rate does exist: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm

I'm sure that Wayne Rooney & his ilk have good accountants that make sure they don't pay top rate income tax, just as Jimmy Carr does.
 

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