TFF promoting carbon capture rip off

DrDunc

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Dunsyre
What would you prefer.
.vast amounts of land being bought up at prices way beyond what a farmer can afford and planted with trees to offset carbon
Or
Farmers being able to sell their carbon sequestration yearly on a world market whilst still farming and producing food?
I would like to "sell" the carbon storage capacity within the farms thousands of acres of peat bog

But I don't want to give somebody £980, or 25% of the income as an "annual payment", which is clearly stated in the example given on the website of the company that TFF are allowing to advertise

I suppose TFF don't need to give two hoots who advertises here, provided they pay the Piper

@Chris F will we be seeing adverts for red tractor?
 

ajd132

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Suffolk
I would like to "sell" the carbon storage capacity within the farms thousands of acres of peat bog

But I don't want to give somebody £980, or 25% of the income as an "annual payment", which is clearly stated in the example given on the website of the company that TFF are allowing to advertise

I suppose TFF don't need to give two hoots who advertises here, provided they pay the Piper

@Chris F will we be seeing adverts for red tractor?
25% is not the annual payment. I’m not sure what this example is but a large proportion of that will be legislated non conformance buffer. There will then be a fee for using the platform for verification, you can then choose whether to pay them commission to sell it or do it yourself.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Just received an email from TFF promoting a company who want to sell farm carbon credits to big industry.

What a bàstard rip off company! Why are TFF promoting companies like this?

On the company's website they give an example of the annual income expected from sales. The annual fee they take is 25%!!!!!!!

View attachment 1017569


Its an advert - TFF do not endorse any product from any advertiser

without advertisers there would be no forum

RE Carbon - there are several companies in this space now offering various quantification models, payments and commissions. Some are already providing farmers with extra income but no one HAS to sell carbon if they don't wish to


As with any advertiser of TFF - make your own mind up
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
I would like to "sell" the carbon storage capacity within the farms thousands of acres of peat bog

But I don't want to give somebody £980, or 25% of the income as an "annual payment", which is clearly stated in the example given on the website of the company that TFF are allowing to advertise

I suppose TFF don't need to give two hoots who advertises here, provided they pay the Piper

@Chris F will we be seeing adverts for red tractor?


I don't believe any of the Carbon certification companies are selling storage (yet) ? just annual calculated sequestration, if you didn't sell last years sequestration service you have lost that forever now, in my mind not selling it is like not bothering to sell your wheat ! it's valuable output from your land that there is a market for

In a world without BPS farmers are going to need these extra sources of income more and more


and yes we will take advertising from anyone with product relevant to farmers, we do not endorse any advertiser however. Without our advertisers there is no forum, it doesn't run on fresh air sadly
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Give it 12 months and you won’t need a broker which is what these companies are.


these companies are certification services, there are several now


when you have your ISO certificates you can sell however you wish, via a broker or directly but no-one will buy without certification in my experience
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Don’t sign up to that. Leave it 12 months and they’ll be a proper market. The supermarket I’ve spoken to are talking significant amounts of money. That offer above is just a joke.

12 months from now I will have my 2021 and 2022 ISO cert carbon sequester in those years either sold or sat ready to sell when I feel the price is right, anyone waiting 12 months will have none

This is not selling stored carbon, it's quantification of sequester ability of your farming system - quantify and certify it or loose it


The biggest problem with this new market is its not really being very well understood yet, the companies building these markets really need to do more to explain and educate better IMO and I don't think anyone has models yet to certify from grassland


Anyone looking at doing this should consider

Agreena (Gentle farming)
Trinity Ag
Soil Capital

there are probably others but those 3 come to mind first
 
these companies are certification services, there are several now


when you have your ISO certificates you can sell however you wish, via a broker or directly but no-one will buy without certification in my experience
I think they will do but down the line a bit. I’ve been talking to a supermarket and it looks like they probably will launch their own service where by they purchase direct off farms.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
I think they will do but down the line a bit. I’ve been talking to a supermarket and it looks like they probably will launch their own service where by they purchase direct off farms.


LOL - the supermarkets will just make you give them this as part of your sale, i've sat in MANY meetings now where they have said as much

This is EXACTLY why its best these markets evolve so farmers can have some control

nothing has any value unless you can quantify it so even if you do end up giving your sequestration to your buyers they will want you to quantify it ......... so you will still need one of these platforms to prove to them how much you have


start quantifying and certifying it now, you will start building up a balance, there is absolutely no logic in waiting other than the belief that Carbon will never have any value and no one will ever buy it and you have just said you think it will have value in the future
 
LOL - the supermarkets will just make you give them this as part of your sale, i've sat in MANY meetings now where they have said as much

This is EXACTLY why its best these markets evolve so farmers can have some control

nothing has any value unless you can quantify it so even if you do end up giving your sequestration to your buyers they will want you to quantify it ......... so you will still need one of these platforms to prove to them how much you have


start quantifying and certifying it now, you will start building up a balance, there is absolutely no logic in waiting other than the belief that Carbon will never have any value and no one will ever buy it and you have just said you think it will have value in the future

There going to have their own platform is what I meant. Looks like they’ll just run regular adverts in farming press to get peoples attention then you go online to register etc. then their platform will quantify what’s been inputted and an offer then made. They likened it to Apple’s trade in service where you input the info then an offer is generated.
We’ll see if it comes to fruition but they are nearly 2 years into discussions and I’m due to speak again to them in March.
 

Renaultman

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Darlington
Carbon credits is a disgrace the whole thjng needs scrapped . Stupid idea
That may be so but I fear it will be here to stay. IMHO it requires careful watching and believe it could be one of those things where the patient ones see the best returns. Economic factors are steering me towards a lower carbon farming practice anyway so may as well look to capitalise on it if the opportunity arises but at the moment I'm just keeping an eye on the job.
 

ajd132

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Suffolk
That may be so but I fear it will be here to stay. IMHO it requires careful watching and believe it could be one of those things where the patient ones see the best returns. Economic factors are steering me towards a lower carbon farming practice anyway so may as well look to capitalise on it if the opportunity arises but at the moment I'm just keeping an eye on the job.
It’s year on year sequestration at the moment you can sell so you achieve nothing by waiting. Some of the legislation is changing quite quickly so will devalue certificates if you don’t get sell.
I thought the same as you but currently not the case.
 

SteveHants

Member
Livestock Farmer
12 months from now I will have my 2021 and 2022 ISO cert carbon sequester in those years either sold or sat ready to sell when I feel the price is right, anyone waiting 12 months will have none

This is not selling stored carbon, it's quantification of sequester ability of your farming system - quantify and certify it or loose it


The biggest problem with this new market is its not really being very well understood yet, the companies building these markets really need to do more to explain and educate better IMO and I don't think anyone has models yet to certify from grassland


Anyone looking at doing this should consider

Agreena (Gentle farming)
Trinity Ag
Soil Capital

there are probably others but those 3 come to mind first
This the same model as environment bank?
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
It’s happening all around the world. It’s not going to stop. We either embrace it and profit from it or let someone else take the profit.
I could embrace and profit from selling drugs rather than letting someone else take the profit... doesn't make it the right thing to do though. The only way a carbon market would make any sense is if every primary extractors of coal, oil and gas had to buy carbon offsets for what they pull out of the ground. What is currently on offer is little more than a means invented to move money from low and middle income households to land owners and "service" providers whilst achieving no meaningful reduction in CO2. Carbon credit schemes are like water soluble life jackets and chocolate tea pots, their function is purely optical.
 

Renaultman

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Darlington
I could embrace and profit from selling drugs rather than letting someone else take the profit... doesn't make it the right thing to do though. The only way a carbon market would make any sense is if every primary extractors of coal, oil and gas had to buy carbon offsets for what they pull out of the ground. What is currently on offer is little more than a means invented to move money from low and middle income households to land owners and "service" providers whilst achieving no meaningful reduction in CO2. Carbon credit schemes are like water soluble life jackets and chocolate tea pots, their function is purely optical.
You are probably right, it's a way of every one feeling better about their foreign holidays and flash cars by paying for something that has been happening for ever. It may not be right but we may all end up having to do it.
 

ajd132

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Suffolk
I could embrace and profit from selling drugs rather than letting someone else take the profit... doesn't make it the right thing to do though. The only way a carbon market would make any sense is if every primary extractors of coal, oil and gas had to buy carbon offsets for what they pull out of the ground. What is currently on offer is little more than a means invented to move money from low and middle income households to land owners and "service" providers whilst achieving no meaningful reduction in CO2. Carbon credit schemes are like water soluble life jackets and chocolate tea pots, their function is purely optical.
You make it sound like BPS
 

SteveHants

Member
Livestock Farmer
As I understand it, certainly with regards to companies like environment bank, it is to "offset" habitat removal by developers, for which they are now legally obliged to pay - so they lease habitat from landowners to do this.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
There going to have their own platform is what I meant. Looks like they’ll just run regular adverts in farming press to get peoples attention then you go online to register etc. then their platform will quantify what’s been inputted and an offer then made. They likened it to Apple’s trade in service where you input the info then an offer is generated.
We’ll see if it comes to fruition but they are nearly 2 years into discussions and I’m due to speak again to them in March.

if you think a supermarket ever intends to pay you for your carbon you are deluded


they will take it though if farmers don’t develop markets themselves
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
That may be so but I fear it will be here to stay. IMHO it requires careful watching and believe it could be one of those things where the patient ones see the best returns. Economic factors are steering me towards a lower carbon farming practice anyway so may as well look to capitalise on it if the opportunity arises but at the moment I'm just keeping an eye on the job.

patience is costing you, you can’t sell what you have already missed out on certifying, only reason to not quantify and certify is the belief carbon will never have a saleable value



which platform to use is the question, some are taking much higher % for the service than others


im not sure why the % is bothering people who also say they are not selling and it’s all a load of rubbish ……… the cost is surely irrelevant to them !
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 79 42.0%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 35.1%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 16.0%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,292
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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