The cost of doing safety on the cheap !

[MD @Minshall Buildings]

The owner of a building has been fined £80,000 after a roofer fell to his death.

The roofer was fatally injured when he fell six metres while working on a replacement roof at a property in Kirkdale, Liverpool.
Liverpool Crown Court heard how, on 22nd May 2017, the roofer was completing snagging work on a replacement roof. He had accessed a part of the old roof made of fragile asbestos cement sheets, which gave way. He fell through the sheets to the ground below.
An investigation by the Health & Safety Executive (HSE) found that the area accessed did not have safety nets fitted and the building occupier failed to take reasonably practicable measures to reduce the risk to those working on the roof.
Pearsons Glass, the owner of the building, pleaded guilty to breaching the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, sections 3. The company was fined £80,000 and ordered to pay costs of £6,656.
HSE inspector Andrew McGrory said after the hearing: “The risks from working on fragile surfaces are well known. Businesses have a responsibility to ensure that the contractor they select to undertake any construction work devise safe methods of doing so, which should include providing the necessary information to their workers and ensuring that they are adequately supervised.”
The prosecution of the roofing contractor is ongoing.

 

[snarling bee]

The problem is you can have ALL the paperwork, and then as I did, you go and check progress at 7.30am and see a subby walking about on the roof taking the handrail down with no safety gear whatsoever. And he was dropping all the poles and clips to a guy on the ground who hadn't even got a hard hat on. They kept tell me to stop shouting at them! To say I was furious was an understatement. The buck would have stopped with me as the landowner, but what can you do? The main contractor had a boll@king as well.

 

[theboytheboy]

Genuine question.

What are you supposed to do to cover yourself when using contractors?

Seems that the only way to truly cover your arse is not use them or stand there monitoring them all day. In which case you may as well do the job yourself.

Does having it in writing that they will comply will all h and s mean anything if they then choose not to when you are not looking?

 

[milkloss]

I thought you were supposed to employ a business that watched the HS aspect.

 

[snarling bee]

Genuine question.

What are you supposed to do to cover yourself when using contractors?

Seems that the only way to truly cover your arse is not use them or stand there monitoring them all day. In which case you may as well do the job yourself.

Does having it in writing that they will comply will all h and s mean anything if they then choose not to when you are not looking?

I don't know what the answer is.

 

[snarling bee]

I thought you were supposed to employ a business that watched the HS aspect.

I thought I had, but when someone flouts the rules/ procedures behind your back, what can you do?

 

[theboytheboy]

This is why I end up feeling h&s is a load of bulls**t a lot of the time

 

[MD @Minshall Buildings]

My reason for sharing this was that in our experience we nearly always loose business due to the client choosing a "cheaper" option by employing suppliers/erectors that don't use nets and handrails and therefore are much cheaper than those of us who do it properly!

They are usually cheaper and quicker for a reason?

......when we point this out to clients, many seem to think its not their problem as the supplier/erectors EL/PL insurance will cover....it wont!

Unless the client formally appoints a principle contractor, then its his responsibility for the build and if things go wrong, the prosecution/cost and worst of all....... the lives!

I would say ensure you always use a responsible contractor and there are lots about.....Alternatively save cash and take the risk ?

In our experience there is little between the cost of responsible building frame suppliers, the difference is usually what happens on site....whether we like it or not there is a cost for safe working!

 

[Spud]

The blame culture has a lot to answer for. When I employ a contractor, it is to provide a service that I am ill equipped to perform myself. As such, given that they are a specialist in their field, I expect them to provide the necessary equipment and skills required to do the task for which they have been employed. How, as a layman (ie not a roofing contractor, in this case) can I be expected to be qualified to know (beyond reasonable common sense) just exactly what risks exist, and what practical mitigating measures are required? Specialist contractors need to take responsibility for their actions, and that of their staff. By employing (and paying for) a specialist company to carry out a specialist task, I am effectively delegating full responsibility for every element of said task given to them, and expect to pay the appropriate costs of doing so.

I do not expect to have to tell a roofer to put safety nets up. I expect to pay for the use of them, and would accept that should I say that they are unnecessary, and someone fall, it would then be (rightly) me in the dock.

As the boss, I cannot be expected to know everything about everything that everybody does, contractor or staff, at all times. That is unreasonable, impractical, and just silly.

 

[MD @Minshall Buildings]

The blame culture has a lot to answer for. When I employ a contractor, it is to provide a service that I am ill equipped to perform myself. As such, given that they are a specialist in their field, I expect them to provide the necessary equipment and skills required to do the task for which they have been employed. How, as a layman (ie not a roofing contractor, in this case) can I be expected to be qualified to know (beyond reasonable common sense) just exactly what risks exist, and what practical mitigating measures are required? Specialist contractors need to take responsibility for their actions, and that of their staff. By employing (and paying for) a specialist company to carry out a specialist task, I am effectively delegating full responsibility for every element of said task given to them, and expect to pay the appropriate costs of doing so.

I do not expect to have to tell a roofer to put safety nets up. I expect to pay for the use of them, and would accept that should I say that they are unnecessary, and someone fall, it would then be (rightly) me in the dock.

As the boss, I cannot be expected to know everything about everything that everybody does, contractor or staff, at all times. That is unreasonable, impractical, and just silly.

sadly many are driven solely by £ and therefore this plays to the "corner cutting" this article identified!

 

[teslacoils]

The blame culture has a lot to answer for. When I employ a contractor, it is to provide a service that I am ill equipped to perform myself. As such, given that they are a specialist in their field, I expect them to provide the necessary equipment and skills required to do the task for which they have been employed. How, as a layman (ie not a roofing contractor, in this case) can I be expected to be qualified to know (beyond reasonable common sense) just exactly what risks exist, and what practical mitigating measures are required? Specialist contractors need to take responsibility for their actions, and that of their staff. By employing (and paying for) a specialist company to carry out a specialist task, I am effectively delegating full responsibility for every element of said task given to them, and expect to pay the appropriate costs of doing so.

I do not expect to have to tell a roofer to put safety nets up. I expect to pay for the use of them, and would accept that should I say that they are unnecessary, and someone fall, it would then be (rightly) me in the dock.

As the boss, I cannot be expected to know everything about everything that everybody does, contractor or staff, at all times. That is unreasonable, impractical, and just silly.

I suppose if you have employed a h&s specialist to supervise, and an accident happens and you get fined then there should at least be recourse to sue the specialist? There's no way I'd be able to identify any breeches of legislation going on beyond the obvious.

 

[Spud]

I suppose if you have employed a h&s specialist to supervise, and an accident happens and you get fined then there should at least be recourse to sue the specialist? There's no way I'd be able to identify any breeches of legislation going on beyond the obvious.

I agree - but I do think the people on the ground - from the very junior to the most senior - should take responsibility for their own actions.

I see and hear of far too many tales of over confident roofers' complacency resulting in serious injury or death, and the poor sod whose building was been erected having to carry the can for some lazy did that cba to put the nets up.
EVERYBODY is responsible for health & safety, not just the boss.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Genuine question.

What are you supposed to do to cover yourself when using contractors?

Seems that the only way to truly cover your arse is not use them or stand there monitoring them all day. In which case you may as well do the job yourself.

Does having it in writing that they will comply will all h and s mean anything if they then choose not to when you are not looking?

employ contractors who are registered with a compliance scheme such as construction line, therefore the contractor has completed a H S audit with an external body who certify their compliance.

 

[sjt01]

We had some roof lights replaced a while ago. The company provided full method statements and risk assessments. Soon after they started I went and had a look, where they were working was netted and all was OK. Went back to see how they were getting on, almost finished but the second half of the shed had not been netted. As you say, if you are going to stand over them all day, as a non-expert how can you keep out of trouble?

 

[theboytheboy]

The blame culture has a lot to answer for. When I employ a contractor, it is to provide a service that I am ill equipped to perform myself. As such, given that they are a specialist in their field, I expect them to provide the necessary equipment and skills required to do the task for which they have been employed. How, as a layman (ie not a roofing contractor, in this case) can I be expected to be qualified to know (beyond reasonable common sense) just exactly what risks exist, and what practical mitigating measures are required? Specialist contractors need to take responsibility for their actions, and that of their staff. By employing (and paying for) a specialist company to carry out a specialist task, I am effectively delegating full responsibility for every element of said task given to them, and expect to pay the appropriate costs of doing so.

I do not expect to have to tell a roofer to put safety nets up. I expect to pay for the use of them, and would accept that should I say that they are unnecessary, and someone fall, it would then be (rightly) me in the dock.

As the boss, I cannot be expected to know everything about everything that everybody does, contractor or staff, at all times. That is unreasonable, impractical, and just silly.

My feelings exactly.

 

[deleted user 837354]

I don't know what the answer is.

If you have used an approved contractor and who have provided you with a written risk assessment, I don't see how you can be held accountable. You, or your business, have engaged with a third party contractor experienced in the kind of work in question, and as part of that process, you've agreed to a contract (verbal or written it matters not), that states they will carry out the work in a safe way and it will cost X?

 

[Bob]

My reason for sharing this was that in our experience we nearly always loose business due to the client choosing a "cheaper" option by employing suppliers/erectors that don't use nets and handrails and therefore are much cheaper than those of us who do it properly!

They are usually cheaper and quicker for a reason?

......when we point this out to clients, many seem to think its not their problem as the supplier/erectors EL/PL insurance will cover....it wont!

Unless the client formally appoints a principle contractor, then its his responsibility for the build and if things go wrong, the prosecution/cost and worst of all....... the lives!

I would say ensure you always use a responsible contractor and there are lots about.....Alternatively save cash and take the risk ?

In our experience there is little between the cost of responsible building frame suppliers, the difference is usually what happens on site....whether we like it or not there is a cost for safe working!

Surely the client would appoint a H & S Cordinator it would be them who would ensure that a principle contractor is in place and whether the project is notifiable under CDM regs .

The client would then be fully covered for any health and safety breaches by any contractor on site. It doesn't cost that much for peace of mind

 

[deleted user 837354]

We had some roof lights replaced a while ago. The company provided full method statements and risk assessments. Soon after they started I went and had a look, where they were working was netted and all was OK. Went back to see how they were getting on, almost finished but the second half of the shed had not been netted. As you say, if you are going to stand over them all day, as a non-expert how can you keep out of trouble?

You have done all you can do. If a contractor or his staff won't even abide by their own policies what else can you do? Remember you are a layperson with no experience of putting up sheds or working at heights like that. You've covered yourself with insurance. If a person decides to flout their employers rules, what else can you do? All the rules in the world won't stop an accident in the situation you describe?

 

[flowerpot]

We had some solar panels fitted. The sub-contractors had scaffolding, but no safety rail. I was furious, having had a cousin who fell off scaffolding and broke his back (he recovered and was OK in the end).

I remember shouting at them that if they had an accident I would be responsible. Of course they just laughed at me.
I had a go at the supplier of the panels too and he seemed surprised that I was upset.

 

[Pigken]

Need to go to London for that??



Or is that a different kind of flake?..

Surely the client would appoint a H & S Cordinator it would be them who would ensure that a principle contractor is in place and whether the project is notifiable under CDM regs .

The client would then be fully covered for any health and safety breaches by any contractor on site. It doesn't cost that much for peace of mind

Slightly off topic Bob, but is that a picture of your turbine in your aviator. If so is it one of those big ones with red light on.