The Cross slot vs 750a trial

[dontknowanything]

if you were to pay to have a field drilled to see how it worked on your farm I don't see why that wouldn't be R&D ?

Contractor charges tax deductible anyway so no benefit

 

[dontknowanything]

who is then ? surely promotion of the product should be the responsibility of whoever gets commission on Uk sales ? and surely those potential sales are worthy of a little investment ?

I don't think there is an official importer, PW are "product specialists" AFAIK (same as @York )

And I agree about commission. As I said in an earlier post, if they are confident of a good result it could be the best investment they ever make.

And if they aren't confident...well I don't think this idea will get off the ground.

 

[Andy Howard]

I am out. Too much going on to do this as well. There are five 750a in Kent and one CS. If someone asks tom I am sure he may be interested but he is still getting used to using the drill, his first season. Saw it working yesterday. I don't see the point of doing a trial in ideal conditions as I doubt you will see any difference. You want to work in conditions that are going to test them and see if CS has an advantage. My thoughts.

 

[combineguy]

Virtually nothing. 750a is European version of an 1890. 750 was the original american design and they changed it a little.

Hi

if thats the case then, there are 4 CS owners in the US who have previously had JD drills prior to going for a CS. One farmer even had a new one on order but cancelled the order for a CS toolbar. Those people are JD loyal as they had JD combines, tractors and sprayers on their farm. One farmer even has a brother who used to work for JD specializing on drills. So there must be advantages of CS vs JD drills.

Unfortunately none of these guys are on TFF, so you will just need to trust me, but as mentioned by Clive and David there would have to have been some yield/cost advantages to switch to CS

 

[combineguy]

I am out. Too much going on to do this as well. There are five 750a in Kent and one CS. If someone asks tom I am sure he may be interested but he is still getting used to using the drill, his first season. Saw it working yesterday. I don't see the point of doing a trial in ideal conditions as I doubt you will see any difference. You want to work in conditions that are going to test them and see if CS has an advantage. My thoughts.

Hi

what were your thoughts? Is this the one in Worcestershire?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Hi

if thats the case then, there are 4 CS owners in the US who have previously had JD drills prior to going for a CS. One farmer even had a new one on order but cancelled the order for a CS toolbar. Those people are JD loyal as they had JD combines, tractors and sprayers on their farm. One farmer even has a brother who used to work for JD specializing on drills. So there must be advantages of CS vs JD drills.

Unfortunately none of these guys are on TFF, so you will just need to trust me, but as mentioned by Clive and David there would have to have been some yield/cost advantages to switch to CS

What are the advantages for them then?

I'd be happy to see some kiwi data anyway but I read the cross slot book and I did feel it had a couple of misleading statements

 

[Clive]

So there must be advantages of CS vs JD drills.

in the USA maybe yes as in NZ or Aus maybe ................ in the UK there is simply no data to compare unless someone does this trail

in the Uk there is no advantage in the extra coulter travel a CS offers IMO a 750a is more than enough for our level fields, likewise I don't think individual coulter pressure control offers much in UK consistent soils on mostly very level ground

however we wont know any of this if a CS is never run against a JD will we so it will always have to sell itself in the UK on a unquantifiable promise, that's a big ask given the cost

 

[SilliamWhale]

in the USA maybe yes as in NZ or Aus maybe ................ in the UK there is simply no data to compare unless someone does this trail

in the Uk there is no advantage in the extra coulter travel a CS offers IMO a 750a is more than enough for our level fields, likewise I don't think individual coulter pressure control offers much in UK consistent soils on mostly very level ground

however we wont know any of this if a CS is never run against a JD will we so it will always have to sell itself in the UK on a unquantifiable promise, that's a big ask given the cost

Personally I'm not that bothered about a trial. I can't afford to buy one on my limited acreage and would have no wish to have a longer than sensible finance lease on a bit of steel. So already its price and hp limits its market - and I'm even prepared to admit that the Cross Slot may be the best no till drill in the world, but its a subjective thing and just because something is the best doesn't make it the right fit for the farmer.

I don't believe any drill can really influence yields that much one it has the desired amount of seed into good soil conditions. I've had my best ever yields of winter wheat and spring barley on the farm this year (rape a bit poor, winter barley not great - but I have had it do well in the past) and the beans were better than the old man can ever remember from when we last grew them. I'm happy enough with the drill and I know its totally capable of producing high yields.

 

[Andy Howard]

Hi

what were your thoughts? Is this the one in Worcestershire?

No, in Kent. What do I think? Jury is out. Like clive has said I need to see trial data to see the benefits in the UK. My 17 year old £11k drill plus add ons is in good nick. Not sure what a £100k drill plus new bigger tractor would benefit my situation. I am looking forward to seeing how Tom gets on.

 

[moretimeforgolf]

I drilled Tom's spring beans this year with my 750a into cover crop while he was between drills. His CS looks a great piece of kit and I'm sure Tom will have great results as he has done his homework! However, I'm pretty much a one man band, so wouldn't want to commit myself to running to a trial site for several years.

 

[dontknowanything]

We can't expect Tom to get involved, I wouldn't bother if I were him.

As has been said, if CS or their agents are serious about selling machines in this country, they need to be helping out here.

 

[Fred]

There are several direct drilling trials running locally to me and they are all wrong, in what they set out to achieve,

It's either a comparison of strip till machines , disc drill pulled out , or no consistency of plot.

What we need is a 5 year trial with cover crops and no till , versus local farm standard, eg plough, etc, Deep non inversion,replicated on several large plots

It should include organic matter measurement and soil porosity, along with full costing s for operation,

It should be on heavy soil , which is regarded as the hardest to direct drill,

It should be managed by a cadre of interested parties

To be honest running a trial on Clives light soil wont answer many questions unless the question is can I direct drill light soils, and retain moisture, as Clive is showing,

Having seen the cross slot work I doubt you would see much difference on a decent year , however what you need is the confidence to drill the correct crop at the right time , if you can do this with a JD then fine, CS market there machine by saying running cost and ability to seed any where are there main objectives ,with little adjustments, ( just look T the additions all of the serious direct drillers have added to their JDs)

If James and his Dad want to sell more machines they need to get them out there, and it seems to me they are doing just that , lots of acres compared to standard farm practice , Jake Freestone has much on his blogs, you tube etc,

I don't think a JD vs CS trial is worthwhile.

 

[dontknowanything]

No trial is going to satisfy everyone, but saying that doing it on light land is pointless is just silly. Yes a 5yr (or 10 or 15) would be great, but putting off large farm decisions for so long is not plausible.

After I visited CS I did a little calculation and found that I would need something like a 3% yield increase to pay for the drill and tractor. But if one then thinks that there will only be a benefit in tricky conditions, the numbers alter. Let's imagine that 25% of drilling is done in sub-optimal conditions, in that case I need a 12% yield increase.

This now starts to get in to the realms of where we should be able to see differences of that magnitude.

Personally I would like to have a trial after animals grazed covers into heavier type land, as this is where I see the potential benefit in lying.

But that is not to say there is no value in testing it in normal conditions too, as a benefit here would be at least equally as important.

Hmmm, is that rambly enough???

 

[SilliamWhale]

There are several direct drilling trials running locally to me and they are all wrong, in what they set out to achieve,

It's either a comparison of strip till machines , disc drill pulled out , or no consistency of plot.

What we need is a 5 year trial with cover crops and no till , versus local farm standard, eg plough, etc, Deep non inversion,replicated on several large plots

It should include organic matter measurement and soil porosity, along with full costing s for operation,

It should be on heavy soil , which is regarded as the hardest to direct drill,

It should be managed by a cadre of interested parties

To be honest running a trial on Clives light soil wont answer many questions unless the question is can I direct drill light soils, and retain moisture, as Clive is showing,

Having seen the cross slot work I doubt you would see much difference on a decent year , however what you need is the confidence to drill the correct crop at the right time , if you can do this with a JD then fine, CS market there machine by saying running cost and ability to seed any where are there main objectives ,with little adjustments, ( just look T the additions all of the serious direct drillers have added to their JDs)

If James and his Dad want to sell more machines they need to get them out there, and it seems to me they are doing just that , lots of acres compared to standard farm practice , Jake Freestone has much on his blogs, you tube etc,

I don't think a JD vs CS trial is worthwhile.

The only real adjustment you'd need to make to a new john deere drill would be to order it without cast closing wheels. The rest is pretty much fine now.

But even then why do you need a five year trial on someone else land versus ploughing etc.? What's it really going to prove? Its not going to prove anything on your own land.

Will all the no tillers go back to ploughing on the basis of .2 t/ha wheat yield in one year and all the ploughmen have an epiphany if one result showed .2t/ha of spring barley in no till? These are the kind of results were going to get. I may have got .25t/ha more crop this year on my farm if I'd ploughed, I may have got .25t/ha less (in fact my one ploughed field did yield less by a significant bit but its just the way it goes). It may have varied field to field, or may not have. But I'll never know.

I think everyone has to do the right thing for their heads more than their farm really, because whatever you do then you will make it successful by the only standards that really count - your own! (and this does not mean ignoring bank managers and landlords because that has a bearing on what is the right thing for you anyway!)

I used to think trials were really valuable but nowadays I'm not so sure. There's enough empirical evidence around to suggest that yields are about similar when no till is practiced with good quality on a range of soil types so I'm wondering why we need to scratch our heads about it all so much.

 

[SilliamWhale]

No trial is going to satisfy everyone, but saying that doing it on light land is pointless is just silly. Yes a 5yr (or 10 or 15) would be great, but putting off large farm decisions for so long is not plausible.

After I visited CS I did a little calculation and found that I would need something like a 3% yield increase to pay for the drill and tractor. But if one then thinks that there will only be a benefit in tricky conditions, the numbers alter. Let's imagine that 25% of drilling is done in sub-optimal conditions, in that case I need a 12% yield increase.

This now starts to get in to the realms of where we should be able to see differences of that magnitude.

Personally I would like to have a trial after animals grazed covers into heavier type land, as this is where I see the potential benefit in lying.

But that is not to say there is no value in testing it in normal conditions too, as a benefit here would be at least equally as important.

Hmmm, is that rambly enough???

I don't know why you'd want to put yourself in that potentially stressful position? I don't see that as a resilient proposition which is what we need in crop growing.

 

[York]

in the USA maybe yes as in NZ or Aus maybe ................ in the UK there is simply no data to compare unless someone does this trail

in the Uk there is no advantage in the extra coulter travel a CS offers IMO a 750a is more than enough for our level fields, likewise I don't think individual coulter pressure control offers much in UK consistent soils on mostly very level ground

however we wont know any of this if a CS is never run against a JD will we so it will always have to sell itself in the UK on a unquantifiable promise, that's a big ask given the cost

Sorry,
I think how do you want to monitor a "consistent" soil if none of the GB CS have the ADF system mounted where the changes are measured and Monitored? Even on Ucrain black earth there where high changes across a field. We have seen this also on good Loes fields over here where we have seen big differences.
Sorry, you can only discus things which you have measured. All other is a pitching in the fog.
Concerning comparison between CS and other diills:
done it, been there, got the T-shirt.
Even with CS being better, in state trials which are published, we have 2 CS running in Germany and one is a long term JD 750 farm, it has no relevance for the decision of the farmers. At this long term JD 750 farm the farm management, research farm of a university, was massively opposing the arrival o the CS.
We are not interested in the 80+% where a other drill is also making it, we are interested, without any additional soil tillage, to archive a 98% success rate.
York-Th.

 

[York]

We had a direct comparison for 7+ years over here. Several of TFF members have been there, seen to so called "CS field". In most years the drilling was paid for the farmer by 3rd party. In the end I advised the owner of the CS to stop going there. Why? The farmer boycotted this so things where happening like:
- there was not fertiliser at planting, which we had agreed on before
- no monitoring of slugs (same as the early CS trial at one of TFF members which said: we don't get them. When he looked in his Vadi (I think that was the comparison) he found slugs, but in CS the OSR was gone.
- no monitoring, when we said: do s.th. about it, for mice , which are a constant threat and especially when your field is a triangle with less than 2 ha and the sides are a Christmas tree plantation & waste land.
I stop here, this are just the major things.
Sorry, been there, done it, got the T-shirt.
When we did harvest the good parts, which where not obviously effected by management we outperformed all other fields on the farm by any means. Even when we reduced the yield out of the plot combine by 20% to take account for missing headlands & tramlines etc.
York-Th.

 

[dontknowanything]

@York I can't be the only one who is made more and more suspicious each time you come with a another reason that the CS should not be benchmarked against other drills?

What happens in sport if an athlete refuses a drug test?

 

[dontknowanything]

I don't know why you'd want to put yourself in that potentially stressful position? I don't see that as a resilient proposition which is what we need in crop growing.

sorry, don't understand what you're saying?

 

[Clive]

I guess the best trails and info is the stuff you do yourself on your own farm which is why I constantly make comparisons in everything we do. I would a happily pay for CS to drill half a field here for the next 5 years and as usual i don't mind sharing my results but there seems little interest to do that