The Elaine Ingham Challenge

Dr. Ingham certainly has some eye opening ideas, but I look at my permanent upland pasture, most of which has never been tilled (probably ever), is very high in organic matter, most of which never gets water logged, doesn't get herbicides, fungicides or mineral fertilizers, has had every opportunity to develop the best bacteria to fungi ratio and it over a sandy clay glacial till soil, is not compacted and ask; so why isn't it the most productive land in the country? My neighbour went into a forestry scheme in 2001 and the pitiful moribund twigs which cling to life 14 years later prove it isn't!
 
Dr. Ingham certainly has some eye opening ideas, but I look at my permanent upland pasture, most of which has never been tilled (probably ever), is very high in organic matter, most of which never gets water logged, doesn't get herbicides, fungicides or mineral fertilizers, has had every opportunity to develop the best bacteria to fungi ratio and it over a sandy clay glacial till soil, is not compacted and ask; so why isn't it the most productive land in the country? My neighbour went into a forestry scheme in 2001 and the pitiful moribund twigs which cling to life 14 years later prove it isn't!

But in a natural scenario woodland succession doesn't work the same way as tree planting certain species. I think the pioneer tree species (ie birch) would tend to prosper first and then the mature species would come along later. But I don't know what trees your mate has planted. The much despised on this forum George Monbiot wrote a really good chapter on this sort of thing in his book "Feral".
 
But in a natural scenario woodland succession doesn't work the same way as tree planting certain species. I think the pioneer tree species (ie birch) would tend to prosper first and then the mature species would come along later. But I don't know what trees your mate has planted. The much despised on this forum George Monbiot wrote a really good chapter on this sort of thing in his book "Feral".
Yes but we're not going talking about bare parent material here, but in to a well established "soil" with supposedly all the factors necessary ready in place, and also the land can't a grass crop either. I really want to believe Dr. Ingham, after all we could all be sat on a gold mine, but if she's right, what's the missing link?....As for Monbiot.....Well, let's just politely say anything he writes is ideologically driven rather than scientifically driven.
 
Yes but we're not going talking about bare parent material here, but in to a well established "soil" with supposedly all the factors necessary ready in place, and also the land can't a grass crop either. I really want to believe Dr. Ingham, after all we could all be sat on a gold mine, but if she's right, what's the missing link?....As for Monbiot.....Well, let's just politely say anything he writes is ideologically driven rather than scientifically driven.

I know but if your in a upland area then I still don't think certain tree species would thrive without other types around them to provide shade etc.

Monbiot is definitely ideological but I wouldn't say anything he writes is not scientific.
 

Pedders

Member
Location
West Sussex
Monbiot is definitely ideological but I wouldn't say anything he writes is not scientific.

what !!! splutters into cup of tea ..not everyone agrees with you :)

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what !!! splutters into cup of tea ..not everyone agrees with you :)

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The rewilding is much more idealistic than scientific I agree (I still think it has potential in some places where agricultural returns don't stack up) but I think its wrong to say all he writes is all nonsense, he's a thoughtful bloke but I don't agree with all he says.
 
@ TALDLONKTUP

How do you know that there was "every opportunity to develop the best bacteria to fungi ratio"?

Had you ever had a chemical, biological & microbiological soil analysis?

Then you could make a claim about the quantitative ratio of bacteria to fungi and the proportion of soil organic matter and humus.

Pasture ist bacteria dominated.
Mostly trees can bring in more fungal ratio.

Yes, there was "every opportunity to develop the best bacteria to fungi ratio" - for pasture.

Pasture soil is not the best for cultivated plants/crops cultured by human.


As a non-native english speaker:

did I understand this sentence:
"My neighbour went into a forestry scheme in 2001 and the pitiful moribund twigs which cling to life 14 years later prove it isn't!"
correct?:
Your neighbour planted trees/forest and scrubs/shrubs began to grow again in the formerly "naked" (pasture)land.
 
@ TALDLONKTUP

How do you know that there was "every opportunity to develop the best bacteria to fungi ratio"?

Had you ever had a chemical, biological & microbiological soil analysis?

Then you could make a claim about the quantitative ratio of bacteria to fungi and the proportion of soil organic matter and humus.

Pasture ist bacteria dominated.
Mostly trees can bring in more fungal ratio.

Yes, there was "every opportunity to develop the best bacteria to fungi ratio" - for pasture.

Pasture soil is not the best for cultivated plants/crops cultured by human.


As a non-native english speaker:

did I understand this sentence:
"My neighbour went into a forestry scheme in 2001 and the pitiful moribund twigs which cling to life 14 years later prove it isn't!"
correct?:
Your neighbour planted trees/forest and scrubs/shrubs began to grow again in the formerly "naked" (pasture)land.
Dr. Ingham (I believe) advocates keeping plant cover in order for roots to feed bacteria which in turn feed fungi which make nutrients vailable to the plant, no cultivation and that all applied fertilizers are unnecessary, which is the very conditions this land has always had, and therefore the soil should perfect. As it isn't, we must be missing something! What is it?,,,,,, No, not had any tests done on soil, which would a good starting point, admittedly........I've only just discovered Dr. Ingham and It's all amazing stuff, but actually sounds right, if we can get it to work.

The neighbour had 88 acre upland pasture (going from 800ft to 1000ft) and received a payment to plant native board leaf trees (ash, rowen, beech, birch etc.) after 14 years it still looks like bare pasture from 100 metres away as the trees just haven't "taken"
 

Mrs Knockie

Member
Location
Aberdeenshire
Dr. Ingham (I believe) advocates keeping plant cover in order for roots to feed bacteria which in turn feed fungi which make nutrients vailable to the plant, no cultivation and that all applied fertilizers are unnecessary, which is the very conditions this land has always had, and therefore the soil should perfect. As it isn't, we must be missing something! What is it?,,,,,, No, not had any tests done on soil, which would a good starting point, admittedly........I've only just discovered Dr. Ingham and It's all amazing stuff, but actually sounds right, if we can get it to work.

The neighbour had 88 acre upland pasture (going from 800ft to 1000ft) and received a payment to plant native board leaf trees (ash, rowen, beech, birch etc.) after 14 years it still looks like bare pasture from 100 metres away as the trees just haven't "taken"

From what I understand bacteria and fungus use different 'food', bacteria do not feed fungus, and it is the predators (Protozoa/nematodes) that then eat the bacteria/fungus and release the nutrients for the plants. Fungus prefer complex 'woody' food whilst bacteria use simpler, green material. Hard to try to explain in a few lines, I'm still trying to get my head around it all - if you see that plants appear in succession (from weeds to trees), I understand that soil biology also follows a succession from bacterial to fungal. And soils can get 'stuck' along the line, or be knocked backwards by various factors. The trees that are not thriving - could they have been planted into a bacterial soil, and trees need fungus to support them. If I was planting trees now, into a grass/cropped bacterial soil, I would ideally like to apply a highly fungal compost to help move the biology along in the right direction and give the trees the best chance of establishing. Could it also be that as the environment is a bit harsher higher up, perhaps trees need a more 'ideal' soil condition to allow them to thrive than trees planted at lower levels, so although planting into those soil conditions at lower levels may work, it might not when they are stressed by the local 'climate'?
 

LIVE - DEFRA SFI Janet Hughes “ask me anything” 19:00-20:00 20th September (Today)

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Hello, I’m Janet Hughes. I’m the Programme Director for the Future Farming and Countryside Programme in Defra – the programme that’s phasing out the Common Agricultural Policy and introducing new schemes and services for farmers.



Today (20 September) between 7pm-8pm, I and some of my colleagues will be answering your questions about our work including the Sustainable Farming Incentive, Farming in Protected Landscapes, and our test and trials.



We’ll try to answer at least 15 of your top voted questions, so please vote on the questions you’d most like me to answer.



You can read more about our Future Farming policy on our blog.



I’ve answered some of your questions previously: you can watch the videos on...
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