The fate of pesticides in soil

dstudent

Member
What are you thoughts on this recent study? A friend just sent it to me and I thought I should ask the experts here, what s your opinion? The study was done in France, would it make a difference here? Is this old news? I ll try to get the original report.(y)
Farms could slash pesticide use without losses, research reveals
Study shows almost all farms could significantly cut chemical use while producing as much food, in a major challenge to the billion-dollar pesticide industry
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/06/farms-could-slash-pesticide-use-without-losses-research-reveal

Edit here is the original research
https://www.nature.com/articles/npl...MKNMvln&tracking_referrer=www.theguardian.com
 
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rob1

Member
Location
wiltshire
I think most farmers would like to cut pesticide use for financial reasons if not for environmental ones, the trouble is research from both sides of the debate starts out trying to prove what they are trying to support and thus cant be claimed to be balanced. Those who farm know from bitter experience the cost of getting it wrong and have to apply the precautionary approach most of the time, most wear seat belts on every journey yet the chance of actually needing it are miniscule now imagine having it save you once in every four journeys,how many would risk not wearing it each time, well thats similar to using pesticides and of course if we all stopped using them disease levels would rise and so the risks of crop failure would rise, measels in humans got to very low levels so many aprents stopped having their kids vacinated as very low risk of catching it, then of course a few kids do come into contact with a carrier and so cases rise slowly
 

martian

DD Moderator
BASE UK Member
Location
N Herts
What are you thoughts on this recent study? A friend just sent it to me and I thought I should ask the experts here, what s your opinion? The study was done in France, would it make a difference here? Is this old news? I ll try to get the original report.(y)
Farms could slash pesticide use without losses, research reveals
Study shows almost all farms could significantly cut chemical use while producing as much food, in a major challenge to the billion-dollar pesticide industry
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/06/farms-could-slash-pesticide-use-without-losses-research-reveal

Edit here is the original research
https://www.nature.com/articles/npl...MKNMvln&tracking_referrer=www.theguardian.com
The most interesting line is on insecticides: farmers who don't use them have higher yields and more grey partridges. I'm paraphrasing, but the point is clear, it's a slippery slope, once you start using them you upset the natural balance and harm, or kill, the predators of the bugs that you think you don't want and then you get a population explosion of the baddies, leading to more spraying etc. Since we've given up using insecticides here, we've found we don't have a problem with slugs. Coincidence? Or we've got a healthy population of ground beetles which keep slugs under control. Time will tell I'm sure.

@rob1 's point above is good; most sprays are effectively cost benefit insurance. However, if we could be bothered, we could modify our rotations, chose disease/pest resistant crops and grow a pair of cojones to skip the odd spray and see where we end up. Our main problem is that most modern crops have been bred for max yield and any natural protection has been cast aside as it is 'too expensive' for the crop to carry. There was an interesting programme about plants on Hawaii the other night that showed how the plants there had stopped bothering to defend themselves against herbivores, as there weren't any on the island. Thus mint didn't taste of mint as mint is 'expensive' for the plant to make and it can grow much quicker without faffing about and smelling disgusting.

Couple this with the fact that most agricultural soils aren't that healthy, so that the crops they grow lack resilience against attack by fungus, slug or insect, then it's hardly surprising that we 'need' to spray so much. I look forward to the day that research is geared towards helping farmers off this particular hamster wheel and producing good food that people actually need.
 

The_Swede

Member
Arable Farmer
The points made re potential for conflicted and distorted advice as part of a sales agenda are well reported on here and somewhat difficult to defend in my view. Re insecticides I agree 100% that BYDV is a real pain in more southerly locations though.
 
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Was shown info many years ago that showed much higher bydv problems in areas with the lowest wild cherry trees. Conclusion given was no natural home for the aphids to overwinter so migrated into cereals. Not happy with their home so tended to move about. Maybe plant more Geen trees?

No cherries but the areas worst affected have been the most sheltered and protected by trees and wind in this case
 
No cherries but the areas worst affected have been the most sheltered and protected by trees and wind in this case
The map of Scotland showed lowest distribution in the SW and highest Bydv damage. If memory serves me correctly SW England had poor distribution as well.
Very long term but better start planting now as we might lose other pesticides, Neo nics on cereals may be next.
Dursban lost while no approved alternative available.
Greenland (garlic "aspirin") mix we have always used on organic grass only alternative I know of. Half the persistence and twice the price of Dursban.
 

martian

DD Moderator
BASE UK Member
Location
N Herts
Was shown info many years ago that showed much higher bydv problems in areas with the lowest wild cherry trees. Conclusion given was no natural home for the aphids to overwinter so migrated into cereals. Not happy with their home so tended to move about. Maybe plant more Geen trees?
I'm thrilled by this information. We've planted (and sown...) a lot of wild cherries over the years as they grow well here. Probably all the aphids...
 
Very interesting article on this very subject by Matt Hagny in issue 8-3 of Leading Edge, which Silliam W kindly posted up a while ago. Can't work out how to make it easier for you to access.

http://www.notill.org/resources/leading-edge-magazine -

John, do you, or anyone else, have that Matt Hagny article on glyphosate downloaded anywhere? I really want to reread it but it's not on their site anymore.
 
Hallelujah. This article by Hagny explains completely all the problems I have seen growing Spring crops after big cover crops.
http://www.notill.org/sites/default/files/le_8-3_web.pdf

A major concern resulting from these studies is glyphosate’s use in terminating cover crops: For causing glyphosate injury to subsequent crops, the greatest risk is from spraying it onto a dense canopy of vegetation, be it weeds or a growing crop (either a RR crop, or a non-RR crop being terminated for replant, etc.). So, you’d prefer to avoid killing a nice thicket of cover crop with glyphosate and then planting a susceptible crop immediately into that seedbed—at least if you wanted to improve the odds that a truly vigorous crop would be forthcoming.55 Crops highly sensitive to foliar glyphosate include wheat, barley, rye, sunflowers, some of the millets, non-RR corn, oats, etc. Non-RR soybeans and some other legumes, as well as non-RR cotton, are less sensitive (and RR soys are 50x less sensitive yet), and sensitivity to root-uptake glyphosate appears to follow the same pattern amongst species.5

The bigger the cover crop, the worse the following Spring crop. That is what I have always found and now we find that glyphosate is the culprit, as I have always suspected. Uptake of AMPA reduces vigour or sometimes kills small seedlings. Glyphosate locks up nutrients, especially manganese in the plant roots and also promotes pathogenic fungi in the soil (fusarium, pithium) which cause a fair bit of harm to emerging plants. These things are worse in heavy soil where glyphosate and AMPA can hang around for months, often being re-released after being previously tied to phosphate. Yes @shakerator, it could be that glyphosate promoted damping off is effecting my peas.

Another thing he says is that heavy rain after drilling in no-till seems to cause more trouble than he would really expect, but now thinks that the rain is causing pre-drilling applied glyphosate to be released, thus effecting germination and vigour. We have all had problems with rain after drilling, what ever time of year, but @Hartwig seems to struggle with this more than any of us, what do you think?

Simon, do you have a copy of this article?
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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