The first signs ...... here we go

[holwellcourtfarm]

[QUOTE="ollie989898, post: 4972724, member: 54866"
We can argue tooth and nail about meat or milk production systems but it wont be long before all meat and animal products comes out of a vat grown from cells in culture.[/QUOTE]
Maybe.

And maybe we actually will be using electricity produced by nuclear fusion (can also be done in a lab).

 

[ollie989898]

[QUOTE="ollie989898, post: 4972724, member: 54866"
We can argue tooth and nail about meat or milk production systems but it wont be long before all meat and animal products comes out of a vat grown from cells in culture.

Maybe.

And maybe we actually will be using electricity produced by nuclear fusion (can also be done in a lab). [/QUOTE]

Producing food products from animals is hideously inefficient in terms of energy and water use. Using cell culture in a factory controlled process will be orders of magnitude faster and cheaper and probably better for the environment.

Fusion will happen but when no one knows. Makes no odds anyway as we can use fission to see us right for thousands of years once all the world's gas supplies have been expended, which won't be in any of our lifetimes either.

 

[Brisel]

Never mind the energy! Insects, algae and fish are much more efficient in converting feed to protein. Cattle is around 6 to 8:1, pigs 3:1, sheep 6:1 and poultry 2:1. Fish & crickets are close to 1:1

Bug burger anyone? They hid the horsemeat from us for years after all....

 

[ollie989898]

Never mind the energy! Insects, algae and fish are much more efficient in converting feed to protein. Cattle is around 6 to 8:1, pigs 3:1, sheep 6:1 and poultry 2:1. Fish & crickets are close to 1:1

Bug burger anyone? They hid the horsemeat from us for years after all....

In Thailand I saw one of those street vendors where they were selling such delights as deep fried chicken feet and what appeared to be candied locusts... The kids in proximity were acting is if a container load of Haribo had been dropped off.

 

[yellow belly]

Will never happen. Any government seen imposing barriers to the sourcing and retailing of cheap food is committing electoral suicide.

We can argue tooth and nail about meat or milk production systems but it wont be long before all meat and animal products comes out of a vat grown from cells in culture.

the eu currently imposes import duty that underpins the price of all grains
maize has an import duty into the eu that brings the price up to feed wheat price there is trq for Ukraine which allows free imports for a certain tonnage for each quarter

once the uk leaves the eu unless we have a similar system genetically modified maize will come in at £ 115 per tonne

 

[Brisel]

There will be no bans on lower standard foods - if there were we'd get no trade deals outside the EU. Ag commodities are the most highly protected and contentious goods in the WTO. Gove is selling us down the river to make his promotion into the Cabinet better whilst Liam Fox allows Pandora's Box into our ports in the name of the trade that will keep our economy afloat as it has done for centuries.

 

[ollie989898]

the eu currently imposes import duty that underpins the price of all grains
maize has an import duty into the eu that brings the price up to feed wheat price there is trq for Ukraine which allows free imports for a certain tonnage for each quarter

once the uk leaves the eu unless we have a similar system genetically modified maize will come in at £ 115 per tonne

I could not care less what the EU does or imposes- as I have said before the EU is a protectionist bastion designed to protect retarded French business sectors that can't even their own shoe laces without having to go on strike. We are better off out of that racket, if they persist with that nonsense they will only make Europe less and less internationally relevant as time goes by. The future is trading with whoever has a shilling to spend.

Do you think the UK tax payer cares a job that cheap corn will be imported into the UK, making his milk, cheese and chicken cheaper to buy?

 

[yellow belly]

I could not care less what the EU does or imposes- as I have said before the EU is a protectionist bastion designed to protect retarded French business sectors that can't even their own shoe laces without having to go on strike. We are better off out of that racket, if they persist with that nonsense they will only make Europe less and less internationally relevant as time goes by. The future is trading with whoever has a shilling to spend.

Do you think the UK tax payer cares a job that cheap corn will be imported into the UK, making his milk, cheese and chicken cheaper to buy?

not sure the uk consumer would like yellow coloured maize fed chicken

if the uk becomes a free import country for all the worlds cheap goods they will put import restrictions on uk exports to the eu
for example if we import cheap lamb then plan to export lamb to france they will restrict our exports by some method

 

[martian]

It is already expensive though - it may be easier as a producer to produce it cheaper in a regenerative system than try to convince the consumer of anything!

As you say marketing is key to attracting the more discerning customer, and that is far more easily done if the supermarket chains are actually bidding for produce that has that "label"

Organics are last century's attempt, but some of the regulations have let some of the wind out of it (ie antibiotics being used)

But customers are smart enough to choose for themselves at the end of the day, and if labels include "sustainably produced" and "free of synthetics" then many eco-aware buyers will seek them out.

Many of the public don't want to be "part of the problem" anymore, hence extreme veganism, etc.
They know more "home truths" than many producers will ever accept, about the world we share.

They want farmers to shape up.

There's a very interesting organic farmer from America called Dan Kittredge who is developing a hand held zapper (he's hoping it'll end up as a phone app) which can tell the nutrient density and therefore taste and freshness of food by reading what signals come back from a laser shot. I haven't explained that very well, it's something to do with mass-spectromeny or something. This is a game-changer for concerned consumers, they won't have to read any labels, just point the machine at the items on offer and buy whatever ticks their boxes. It is also a massive wake-up call for growers and super-markets and everyone involved in the race to the bottom. Whatever people might think, the mineral concentration in cereals and other plant foods have fallen alarmingly since records began...people need to eat more to get the same benefit. Organic products can be as empty as 'conventional', it's not about labels, it's good food versus indifferent or even bad.

Oh, and Dan Kittredge is speaking at Groundswell this year. Registrations now open...

 

[ollie989898]

not sure the uk consumer would like yellow coloured maize fed chicken

if the uk becomes a free import country for all the worlds cheap goods they will put import restrictions on uk exports to the eu
for example if we import cheap lamb then plan to export lamb to france they will restrict our exports by some method

Corn fed chicken is sold for a premium in the UK.

We arent in the EU now. Time for sensible negotiation with the other countries around the world who constitute the remaining 6 and a bit billion potential customers farmers can sell to.

 

[rob1]

I don't think they need any convincing - they have a choice of either higher taxes to subsidise low food prices or lower taxes and higher food prices

They know their voters will not accept low welfare and environmental damage and dislike artificial input use in food

restricting imports that don't equal UK standards would go down well with voters whilst helping our economy and us as farmers - its a bit of a win/win situation really unless you run a factory farm in China etc !

Have you had a bang on the head, the average consummer buys on price not how or where stuff is produced, if what you say was true M&S and waitrose would be selling more than tesco/aldi etc, when asked consummers claim to be in your mold but when at the till it is different

 

[Clive]

Have you had a bang on the head, the average consummer buys on price not how or where stuff is produced, if what you say was true M&S and waitrose would be selling more than tesco/aldi etc, when asked consummers claim to be in your mold but when at the till it is different

I don't disagree thats how it is right now but Im looking to the future not the past or present

it wont be about choice or a niche for the affluent, it will be the norm / default, read my previous posts I don't wish to repeat myself

 

[rob1]

I don't disagree thats how it is right now but Im looking to the future not the past or present

it wont be about choice or a niche for the affluent, it will be the norm / default, read my previous posts I don't wish to repeat myself

People have known for decades that smoking kills yet millions of young people still do it and at a huge cost, the only way your vision( as beneficial as it might be) could come to pass is if governments introduced new laws and NO government will make food more expensive, they are only looking to the next election not forty years away. Sugar and salt levels are being reduced bit by bit but most of it is just a marketing ploy, I think by the time the change you forsee comes around we will be long past caring having long since retired

 

[warksfarmer]

sheep meat consumption up so all good at the moment, only a wally worries about something that aint happend yet.

This is happening slowly but surely. Tonight’s BBC news as a small example. Two large woods just outside Grantham being connected to create an outside habitat for joe public. The powers that be want a healthier population as that’s the easiest way to reduce the cost of the nhs and prescriptions etc. Part of that is drastically reduced intake of meats, processed foods and sugar.

10 yrs from now and we will see won’t we!!

 

[Brisel]

Here you go, Clive;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-British-shops-sell-hormone-treated-beef.html

That's your ban on unhealthy foods or those produced to lower standards than ours

Sorry to use the Daily Wail but finding newspapers that don't have paywalls so you can see the whole article is becoming harder. This story was in the Torygraph & Times too, so it's not just DM conjecture.

 

[TelesnaAg]

I did think that in the target 150 thread for sugarbeet.

How about fudge your 150 tonne target and you pay folk properly for the 50 tonnes they want to produce.

Its all a con. Farmers led down the path spend all this extra cash produce a thumping harvest to create oversupply then prices are on the floor. Smiles all round. Not.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN16Z0Q7

Lol so hard my sides hurt...

I agree you should just be properly for your product...but its a global market now.

Trade trade trade..

Ant....

 

[TelesnaAg]

Good thing the greenies werent on earth when the dinosaur roamed...ohhh the ammonia...the planet must have been a mess!!!

There is no such thing as a bad animal.

There is such a thing as a bad human.

Ant....

 

[Robigus]

I have been away the last week or so and not really had time to get into any sort of deep debate and also feel I have already posted a lot in the past around this point that I really don't simply want to repeat

The drive towards simply producing more that we have seen over the last 100 yrs of UK has been nothing more than a simple race to the bottom and it has also had environmental and health consequences that today's consumer (our customer) is increasingly unwilling to accept and is certainly not going to subsidise in preference to the NHS etc

High welfare or sustainable maybe seen today as niche but they will become increasingly the norm either due to consumer demand or more likely law / sub conditions, it will not be premium product, it will be the normal a decade from now. Our future challenge to is farm without a lot of the quick fix solutions we have had in the past and produce healthy / higher welfare food without environmental damage while we are at it.

As farmers or landowners we have massive natural capital potential to fill in gaps in income that via tax people are more willing to pay for than they are for what they see right now as environmentally unsound food or low welfare production- tax payers are already spending a LOT of money fixing environmental problems, why not pay that same money to farmers to avoid many of the issues in the first place ?

Many UK farmers don't make a living growing stuff today and have not done for some time, many only exist because of subs or the fact they own or invested in land quite frankly, food production has long been a sideshow to where many UK farmers actually derive income so why so much focus on producing more of it and increasingly lower and lower prices ?

On this farm we already do lots of the things that Mr Gove and his mates want.
We have small fields and big hedges and wet ditches.
We have diverse crop types and drilling dates.
We establish crops via a variety of systems to suit the conditions and the crop.
We have good levels of soil OM.
We have low input permanent pasture.
We have ancient woodland.
We have dozens of ponds.
We have a wide diversity of flora and fauna, it would be unusual to walk here and not to see English partridge, hares, barn owls or skylarks.
We have a farmyard that is alive with great crested newts.
None of this is because of legislation or incentives it is because this is the way we like to live and farm.
The down side is that none of it adds a penny to the price of a tonne of wheat.

I like your idea of using legislation to make people pay more but I can't see it winning many votes. A return to the Corn Laws maybe, but that didn't end too well last time. How are you going to convince people that paying over the odds for their food is going to make them better off? The obese and the alcoholics tend to die early, it is the fit but frail who live on and cost the tax payer.

How would you tax the imports? Would New Zealand lamb be taxed more or less than Danish bacon or American beef? A ship load of imported wheat would be relatively straight forward but what about a pizza made with ingredients from a variety of countries? How would you tax US beef? Would Gabe Brown's cattle be taxed at the same rate Adams Feedlot with their 100,000 head yard? Often ideas that appear simple become a bit more complex when you have to actually implement them.

 

[Clive]

On this farm we already do lots of the things that Mr Gove and his mates want.
We have small fields and big hedges and wet ditches.
We have diverse crop types and drilling dates.
We establish crops via a variety of systems to suit the conditions and the crop.
We have good levels of soil OM.
We have low input permanent pasture.
We have ancient woodland.
We have dozens of ponds.
We have a wide diversity of flora and fauna, it would be unusual to walk here and not to see English partridge, hares, barn owls or skylarks.
We have a farmyard that is alive with great crested newts.
None of this is because of legislation or incentives it is because this is the way we like to live and farm.
The down side is that none of it adds a penny to the price of a tonne of wheat.

I like your idea of using legislation to make people pay more but I can't see it winning many votes. A return to the Corn Laws maybe, but that didn't end too well last time. How are you going to convince people that paying over the odds for their food is going to make them better off? The obese and the alcoholics tend to die early, it is the fit but frail who live on and cost the tax payer.

How would you tax the imports? Would New Zealand lamb be taxed more or less than Danish bacon or American beef? A ship load of imported wheat would be relatively straight forward but what about a pizza made with ingredients from a variety of countries? How would you tax US beef? Would Gabe Brown's cattle be taxed at the same rate Adams Feedlot with their 100,000 head yard? Often ideas that appear simple become a bit more complex when you have to actually implement them.

sounds like you will be exactly the kind of farm that benefits in the future if things go the way I feel they are like to, and rightly so

legislation is already being used to make people pay more for unhealthy food - see sugar tax for example, this principle is easy extended to other low nutrition, low welfare or unsustainable food production systems

 

[Robigus]

sounds like you will be exactly the kind of farm that benefits in the future if things go the way I feel they are like to, and rightly so

legislation is already being used to make people pay more for unhealthy food - see sugar tax for example, this principle is easy extended to other low nutrition, low welfare or unsustainable food production systems

So all US beef should be taxed the same? Or will the tax be set at producer level?