The future of arable cropping

[czechmate]

The kind of farming I’m talking about will be the only way possible to farm without glyphosate. Mulches, zero disturbance, inter row hoeing etc.
This glyphosate argument about zero till is pushed agenda by machinery and chemical companies who are quickly realising as this style of farming is taking off that that the gravy train is drying up. Farmers who actually take enjoyment and say ‘we will all be back ploughing and cultivating in a few years, no till can’t do it without glyphosate’ are subsidy soft and pampered with their heads in the sand.

I suppose it needs a whole different outlook (which I don’t know if I have the interest in!), but for eg, as mixed farmers we apply our muck to our cereal ground but we feed hay and our muck is full of grass seed. This is not a problem at the moment (as long as it actually rains at some point between harvest and drilling!), with glyphosate...

 

[ajd132]

I suppose it needs a whole different outlook (which I don’t know if I have the interest in!), but for eg, as mixed farmers we apply our muck to our cereal ground but we feed hay and our muck is full of grass seed. This is not a problem at the moment (as long as it actually rains at some point between harvest and drilling!), with glyphosate...

Don’t get me wrong it will be bloody horribly difficult without glyphosate and I don’t know how possible it is. All I know is that going back to ploughing everything every year with multiple cultivation’s will leave such a pathetic amount of money on the job that I will not do it. I’m young enough to go and do something else!

 

[czechmate]

Don’t get me wrong it will be bloody horribly difficult without glyphosate and I don’t know how possible it is. All I know is that going back to ploughing everything every year with multiple cultivation’s will leave such a pathetic amount of money on the job that I will not do it. I’m young enough to go and do something else!

My arable farming started in 1984. All ploughed, disced, power harrowed (heavy leics clay) and drilled with a Massey 30. All with 100 hp tractors. When I think back to the amount of work for the tiny area it is just comical!

Glyphosate far too expensive to use on a farm scale then but that year was using “clean sweep” to kill volunteer barley ahead of osr, paraquat -diquat mix

 

[Clive]

This autumn has highlighted a major weakness in the way the majority of arable crops are established in the uk, min-till particularly on heavy soils. The need to create a chit of the major grass weeds by a light cultivation and leaving for 4-6 weeks has left us exposed if the weather changes as it has this autumn. Is it a one off, or is this going to be a regular occurrence of global warming. It's the "leaving for 4-6 weeks" is where the risk is.
But what are the alternatives? Leaving stubble's untouched and direct drill, strip till or ploughing with it's associated erosion problems? Or perhaps a more flexible rotation with more spring cropping?

“Mintill” is and always has been utterly pointless and the worst of all worlds agronomically

Either plough (properly) or direct drill

 

[Clive]

At the moment (here we are looking at having glyphosate for 3 more years max) (and we have schools/college canteens going vegan days too) I’m becoming at a loss to see the future . As I approach what other lines of work would call “retirement age”, I start to think that our only future is to just make hay (as long as some other suckers are prepared to battle on and buy the stuff). Hay making here at least is ridiculously easy

Has never been such and exciting or opportunity filled period in agriculture imo

people (lots more of them) are still going to eat that’s for sure !

 

[rob1]

Im sure the chemical companies have Glyphosate subsitute ready to go, it wont be "ready" until a week after the ban, it of course will be more expensive until the Patent runs out and generics are available which of course is while they will delay the new product until the law makers remove the cheap competition for them, not that Im a cynic

 

[Clive]

Im sure the chemical companies have Glyphosate subsitute ready to go, it wont be "ready" until a week after the ban, it of course will be more expensive until the Patent runs out and generics are available which of course is while they will delay the new product until the law makers remove the cheap competition for them, not that Im a cynic

rather unfortunately chemical registration doesn’t work like that and is a MANY year process - if there was a replacement on the way we would know by now

we will cope without glyphosate - our grandparents did !

 

[ajd132]

Has never been such and exciting or opportunity filled period in agriculture imo

people (lots more of them) are still going to eat that’s for sure !

Agree, incredibly exciting time it just requires the realisation that farming is going to look completely different to the current status quo

 

[teslacoils]

We will cope without glyphosate - our grandparents did !

Great. Unfortunately the days of my grandparents were fundamentally crapper than today. All these politically enforced changes need to be considered inside the context of profitable farming: a return to the staffing and yields of my grandfather's age would be welcomed if I could make the equivalent profit per acre at today's purchasing power.

 

[rob1]

rather unfortunately chemical registration doesn’t work like that and is a MANY year process - if there was a replacement on the way we would know by now

we will cope without glyphosate - our grandparents did !

we have those years before Gly goes, a new more expensive product wont sell until the current one goes, and yes the oldies did without it,with the plough and mixed farming

 

[Clive]

Great. Unfortunately the days of my grandparents were fundamentally crapper than today. All these politically enforced changes need to be considered inside the context of profitable farming: a return to the staffing and yields of my grandfather's age would be welcomed if I could make the equivalent profit per acre at today's purchasing power.

really? I reckon most of our grandparents made far more from farming than we ever did (or could) - entire farms were bought off the back of years profit around here in the 60/70's

 

[Clive]

we have those years before Gly goes, a new more expensive product wont sell until the current one goes, and yes the oldies did without it,with the plough and mixed farming

I think the smart thing to do would to find ways of coping without such products, that's clearly what our consumers want. Why do we insist on telling them what the want?

 

[MrNoo]

“Mintill” is and always has been utterly pointless and the worst of all worlds agronomically

Either plough (properly) or direct drill

It has it's place, just because you are "a convert" does not mean that your system would suit everyone else's situation. I do wish you'd stop trying to ram it down our throats. I am happy for you that it works in your situation.

 

[Clive]

It has it's place, just because you are "a convert" does not mean that your system would suit everyone else's situation. I do wish you'd stop trying to ram it down our throats. I am happy for you that it works in your situation.

if you read my post I say PLOUGH ? ........................


"mintill" seems to have been an invention designed to sell huge HP tractors and cultivators, more glyphosate etc. Results seem to be an epidemic of grassweed and inability to drill if it rains ........................................ worst of all worlds as I said plough or direct drill BOTH agronomically far superior farming systems

 

[teslacoils]

really? I reckon most of our grandparents made far more from farming than we ever did (or could) - entire farms were bought off the back of years profit around here in the 60/70's

Yes that was the point. We are being sent back into the dark ages but expected to do it in a world of unfettered imports.

We don't say "oooh, look how short hospital waiting lists were in the 50s" and get surgeons to use ether; accept a large increase in neonatal deaths; stop using polio vaccines. These are analogous to modern animal husbandry, crop protection etc.

We don't hark back to the days of typing pools and slide rules to combat vdu eyestrain and online banking fraud.

All these changes that get banded about need to be considered in the confines of profitability ie if they impact on the £££ then someone else has to chip in and pay the bill. Farmers in the UK are an easy, easy target for scapegoating a lot of problems rather than the unpopular choice for politicians - telling the voters to waste less, fly less, and work harder.

 

[Clive]

Yes that was the point. We are being sent back into the dark ages but expected to do it in a world of unfettered imports.

We don't say "oooh, look how short hospital waiting lists were in the 50s" and get surgeons to use ether; accept a large increase in neonatal deaths; stop using polio vaccines. These are analogous to modern animal husbandry, crop protection etc.

We don't hark back to the days of typing pools and slide rules to combat vdu eyestrain and online banking fraud.

All these changes that get banded about need to be considered in the confines of profitability ie if they impact on the £££ then someone else has to chip in and pay the bill. Farmers in the UK are an easy, easy target for scapegoating a lot of problems rather than the unpopular choice for politicians - telling the voters to waste less, fly less, and work harder.

Products that have made it easier to grow more food have not helped us as farmers - all they have done is make food cheaper and our margins tighter

If we could ban synthetic N globally tomorrow we would all get VERY rich quickly !

 

[teslacoils]

globally

This.

Once we were the cutting edge of plant research etc. But to expect us to compete on a world stage with a huge load of uncompensated restrictions?

World ban on glyphosate, yeah I'd live with that. Local ban with corresponding tarrifs or suplimentary payments for implementing it? Why not?

Probable UK gold-plating with no perks beyond a couple of Guardian lunacy reports that say "the long term benefits will possibly benefit farmers"? No thanks.

 

[czechmate]

It’s going to be a super fit Clive in later years...

Once he spends his winters walking behind a horse; like our grandfathers (father in my case) did?‍

 

[teslacoils]

I'd love to see fields full of disenchanted youth reconnecting with farming stood singling beet, without a mobile phone in sight.

 

[homefarm]

50:50 spring winter. No till, low fixed costs, natural capital and eco system services. That is what I think will work here on our land anyway.

The kind of farming I’m talking about will be the only way possible to farm without glyphosate. Mulches, zero disturbance, inter row hoeing etc.
This glyphosate argument about zero till is pushed agenda by machinery and chemical companies who are quickly realising as this style of farming is taking off that that the gravy train is drying up. Farmers who actually take enjoyment and say ‘we will all be back ploughing and cultivating in a few years, no till can’t do it without glyphosate’ are subsidy soft and pampered with their heads in the sand.

I farmed before glyphosate twitch couch scotch grass, whatever was the local name, was and still would be your main concern.
The price they could charge originally was because of the amazing control it had on this weed. My first 5litres cost £51.00 and was recommended at 4l/ha. it would have been late 70 s I think.
So good that perhaps as a twenty odd year old you have never seen it.
It grows from rhizomes and I believe would love the system you describe above.
PLoughing did not work either unless it was just before a frost, it was a real nightmare and will come back if glyphosate goes.
Instead of an outright ban perhaps they should put the price back up to the early days and then it could still be used occasionally. A tax even?

Your system could work well with one glyphosate every 5/10 years but I think would soon struggle without it altogether.