The Governments assault on livestock farming.

[Muddyroads]

Isn't that what the Competition Commission exists to do?

Supposedly....

But there’s only one of them……

 

[egbert]

I'm not pretending that it isn't happening - the graph goes upto 15th of September 2021 so Includes the modern warm period .

The fact that you write " very probably due to the hugely risen CO2 " tells me you are not 100% convinced that the science is settled.

You are correct - It was cold at the end of the 17th century , because of low solar activity.


View attachment 986223


Time will tell whether it is CO2 or solar activity ,that causes climate change - then we will know who is STOOPID

I carefully wrote 'probably' because no-one can say such things with certainty.
Nonetheless, it must be more than 40 years that I've been reading that rising CO2 levels will do exactly what they 'probably' are doing. I think it's 60-70 years since the idea was raised.
And I didn't say you are 'stoopid'- i know full well you are not.
I advised you that anyone making denialist claims looks increasingly so.
I know from first hand experience that sitting at a table with scientists, anyone clinging to such stuff would be discredited and disregarded in seconds. Mere seconds. They simply wouldn't take you seriously.

and this graph? again, who can say what sunspot activity will do in the future?
And as @holwellcourtfarm points out, volcanic activity has huge effects on fluctuations (although I think some of the dates/incidents mentioned are misquoted)
Deal with what is right in front us.

I think you may be onto something there, when Europeans arrived in South America, diseases killed over 90% of the Indians. Prior to their arrival the Amazon area was farmed, after over 90% died, the Amazon re grew (and pulled CO2 from the atmosphere). This altered global climate (creating an abnormally cold phase mentioned above)

I think modern human actions have certainly been having an effect. Mega-fauna extinctions have followed wherever we set our feet, which must change the face of wherever we settle.
I don't know that the jury is back on how many people the Amazon Basin carried prior to European settlement.
I do know about the large ancient earthworks indicating much greater activity, and the charcoal inclusion in soils all over, but I don't know that I've heard it was cleared to any extent.
That certainly doesn't fit with the lifestyle of populations only recorded in modern times. They move on every few years, leaving relatively small areas of cleared ground to regrow, do they not?.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Because temps went from an abnormally cold phase to a 'just above mean' period?
If that's what you take from this graph @CJ there isn't much hope for you mate.
Was that heat wave in Canada not the ultimate game changer for denialists?
Records broken across a huge area by 10 degrees. 10 fudging degrees! it's unheard of, unprecedented in human history, and frightened me.

Pretending it isn't happening looks stoopid, and pretending it isn't very probably due to the evident hugely risen CO2 levels is naïve.
We need to keep the facts straight, to be able to counter the hooey.
Fix your attention on the methane argument, be ready to sink it with the basic chemistry whenever it's made.
That is where OUR battle is.

And, water!
Nobody really gives a stuff about water vapour, compared to methane and CO².

Pretty evident why that is so, really, and that makes it more sad. At least when we look to CO² and CH⁴ people can blame "someone else" when we call for reductions and bans.

Don't see anyone offering to tear down infrastructure (like, roads and cities) to help fix the hydrological cycle and let those acres soak up more water, do we?

It's so much easier to skirt around the problems but the real issues are pretty obvious to those who want to see them

 

[Ffermer Bach]

I carefully wrote 'probably' because no-one can say such things with certainty.
Nonetheless, it must be more than 40 years that I've been reading that rising CO2 levels will do exactly what they 'probably' are doing. I think it's 60-70 years since the idea was raised.
And I didn't say you are 'stoopid'- i know full well you are not.
I advised you that anyone making denialist claims looks increasingly so.
I know from first hand experience that sitting at a table with scientists, anyone clinging to such stuff would be discredited and disregarded in seconds. Mere seconds. They simply wouldn't take you seriously.

and this graph? again, who can say what sunspot activity will do in the future?
And as @holwellcourtfarm points out, volcanic activity has huge effects on fluctuations (although I think some of the dates/incidents mentioned are misquoted)
Deal with what is right in front us.


I think modern human actions have certainly been having an effect. Mega-fauna extinctions have followed wherever we set our feet, which must change the face of wherever we settle.
I don't know that the jury is back on how many people the Amazon Basin carried prior to European settlement.
I do know about the large ancient earthworks indicating much greater activity, and the charcoal inclusion in soils all over, but I don't know that I've heard it was cleared to any extent.
That certainly doesn't fit with the lifestyle of populations only recorded in modern times. They move on every few years, leaving relatively small areas of cleared ground to regrow, do they not?.

I have read that the indigenous populations were not "slash and burn" hunter gatherers, rather a settled agricultural population, however, history is always written by the victors, so little was written by the Spanish about what or who was there before.

https://news.mongabay.com/2005/10/pre-columbian-amazon-supported-millions-of-people/

The domestication of Amazonia before European conquest | Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences

During the twentieth century, Amazonia was widely regarded as relatively pristine nature, little impacted by human history. This view remains popular despite mounting evidence of substantial human influence over millennial scales across the region. Here, ...

royalsocietypublishing.org

 

[primmiemoo]

Well tomorrow (when your in a thinking mood) see if you can come up with an explanation , as to why the climate warmed so much 300 years ago.

Was it Swans?

 

[Jackov Altraids]

I'm fairly sure we are in complete agreement with each other on the problems , the question is, what's the solution ? I'm saying it is to break up the cartel, i'm not sure what you're suggesting.

This thread has been my thought process. My posts have been my meandering thoughts, influenced by all those of you kind enough to reply.
I've just realised that while we are in the town/ village halls winning the debate on livestock, we will return triumphantly to our farms to find the government have sold our buildings and fallowed/ forested our lands.
We have to recognise the deliberate harm being meted against the livestock industry and call it out. The government has got to be directly confronted now and not allowed to hide behind the excuse that they were ' following current guidance'.

 

[JP1]

Reported on radio this morning 1/3 of milk sold in UK to 25-44 year olds now plant "protein"

Thank goodness Nick Robinson at the end stepped over the impartiality line and stated "I'm sorry but it's not milk then is it"

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Isn't that what the Competition Commission exists to do?

Supposedly....

Yes,

but more directly we have The Grocers Adjudicator.

This is from one of their newsletters;

I have just published my annual report and accounts for 2019/2020 and they are now available at www.gov.uk/gca. Do take the opportunity to read through them. In the report I highlight a number of important areas of progress since I was appointed as GCA, including the following examples:

• We have seen an increase, not a decrease in competition in the sector as three more retailers have exceeded £1 billion turnover of groceries and been designated by the Competition and Markets Authority.
• Working between retailers and suppliers has become more efficient, for example the business practices implemented in response to inconsistencies arising as a result of drop and drive have eliminated masses of paperwork as well as reducing time wasted on challenges.
• Suppliers feel more able to challenge the retailers to get the best joint solutions – no longer is the response “how high?” when the retailers ask them to jump.
• Fresh produce suppliers have been growing in size and are confident under the protection of the Code to work closely and on longer contracts with retailers and consumers have benefitted from an increase in innovative products on the supermarket shelves, created by a growing number of speciality suppliers.
• The original 10 regulated retailers are now exemplars among businesses for paying on time. The Duty to Report on Payment Practices and Performance shows they paid between 93% and 100% per cent of all their invoices on time, whereas only 13% of all the suppliers to those retailers achieved the same level of prompt payment.

The successful reduction in complaints is almost certainly down to the point I've highlighted in orange. There are less suppliers, supplying larger volumes.

And who wrote this?.....
Christine Tacon, now head of Red Tractor.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Have sent Mr Dimbleby a follow up reminding him that this has to be at the heart of any food strategy action.



That made me laugh that did

Glad it got a laugh,I did post it firmly tongue in cheek....

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Yes,

but more directly we have The Grocers Adjudicator.

This is from one of their newsletters;

I have just published my annual report and accounts for 2019/2020 and they are now available at www.gov.uk/gca. Do take the opportunity to read through them. In the report I highlight a number of important areas of progress since I was appointed as GCA, including the following examples:

• We have seen an increase, not a decrease in competition in the sector as three more retailers have exceeded £1 billion turnover of groceries and been designated by the Competition and Markets Authority.
• Working between retailers and suppliers has become more efficient, for example the business practices implemented in response to inconsistencies arising as a result of drop and drive have eliminated masses of paperwork as well as reducing time wasted on challenges.
• Suppliers feel more able to challenge the retailers to get the best joint solutions – no longer is the response “how high?” when the retailers ask them to jump.
• Fresh produce suppliers have been growing in size and are confident under the protection of the Code to work closely and on longer contracts with retailers and consumers have benefitted from an increase in innovative products on the supermarket shelves, created by a growing number of speciality suppliers.
• The original 10 regulated retailers are now exemplars among businesses for paying on time. The Duty to Report on Payment Practices and Performance shows they paid between 93% and 100% per cent of all their invoices on time, whereas only 13% of all the suppliers to those retailers achieved the same level of prompt payment.

The successful reduction in complaints is almost certainly down to the point I've highlighted in orange. There are less suppliers, supplying larger volumes.

And who wrote this?.....
Christine Tacon, now head of Red Tractor.

Paid on time....
Under a contract that stipulates payment terms of up to 13 weeks!

Big deal!

 

[Bill the Bass]

Reported on radio this morning 1/3 of milk sold in UK to 25-44 year olds now plant "protein"

Thank goodness Nick Robinson at the end stepped over the impartiality line and stated "I'm sorry but it's not milk then is it"

I find that really difficult to believe when you see how little shelf space ‘plant based liquids’ occupy.

 

[matthew]

And, water!
Nobody really gives a stuff about water vapour, compared to methane and CO².

Pretty evident why that is so, really, and that makes it more sad. At least when we look to CO² and CH⁴ people can blame "someone else" when we call for reductions and bans.

Don't see anyone offering to tear down infrastructure (like, roads and cities) to help fix the hydrological cycle and let those acres soak up more water, do we?

It's so much easier to skirt around the problems but the real issues are pretty obvious to those who want to see them

There was a programme on the televisuals a couple of weeks ago, entitled Water.

So much demand that countries are now setting up shop in other countries to harvest it. The Saudis have drained their own aquifers to grow wheat etc. so are now busy draining underground supplies in the US to grow alfalfa and grain. The general opinion is that there's less than 20 years' supply left.

Major rivers have been dammed for hydro power and diverted for irrigation and one inland sea drained completely. Rusty fishing boats now lie on sun baked sand.

Aral Sea's Eastern Basin Is Dry for First Time in 600 Years

Once the world's fourth largest lake, the vast Asian lake was drained for irrigation.

www.nationalgeographic.com

But what I found most interesting was the assertion that this displacement of large tracts of water, which is heavy, has altered the earth's axis. It's tilted, apparently.

Surely that would also affect climate? Man made for sure, but nothing to do with livestock emmissions.

(Sorry, no links for the programme)

 

[AT Aloss]

There was a programme on the televisuals a couple of weeks ago, entitled Water.

So much demand that countries are now setting up shop in other countries to harvest it. The Saudis have drained their own aquifers to grow wheat etc. so are now busy draining underground supplies in the US to grow alfalfa and grain. The general opinion is that there's less than 20 years' supply left.

Major rivers have been dammed for hydro power and diverted for irrigation and one inland sea drained completely. Rusty fishing boats now lie on sun baked sand.

Aral Sea's Eastern Basin Is Dry for First Time in 600 Years

Once the world's fourth largest lake, the vast Asian lake was drained for irrigation.

www.nationalgeographic.com

But what I found most interesting was the assertion that this displacement of large tracts of water, which is heavy, has altered the earth's axis. It's tilted, apparently.

Surely that would also affect climate? Man made for sure, but nothing to do with livestock emmissions.

(Sorry, no links for the programme)

BBC Four - H2O: The Molecule That Made Us, Series 1, Pulse

How a few drops of water can cause deserts to bloom and create giant rivers in the air.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[JP1]

There was a programme on the televisuals a couple of weeks ago, entitled Water.

So much demand that countries are now setting up shop in other countries to harvest it. The Saudis have drained their own aquifers to grow wheat etc. so are now busy draining underground supplies in the US to grow alfalfa and grain. The general opinion is that there's less than 20 years' supply left.

Major rivers have been dammed for hydro power and diverted for irrigation and one inland sea drained completely. Rusty fishing boats now lie on sun baked sand.

Aral Sea's Eastern Basin Is Dry for First Time in 600 Years

Once the world's fourth largest lake, the vast Asian lake was drained for irrigation.

www.nationalgeographic.com

But what I found most interesting was the assertion that this displacement of large tracts of water, which is heavy, has altered the earth's axis. It's tilted, apparently.

Surely that would also affect climate? Man made for sure, but nothing to do with livestock emmissions.

(Sorry, no links for the programme)

I've been on record for a very long while to say that there will be future wars over water

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

I've been on record for a very long while to say that there will be future wars over water

Not least between China and India.

 

[egbert]

There was a programme on the televisuals a couple of weeks ago, entitled Water.

So much demand that countries are now setting up shop in other countries to harvest it. The Saudis have drained their own aquifers to grow wheat etc. so are now busy draining underground supplies in the US to grow alfalfa and grain. The general opinion is that there's less than 20 years' supply left.

Major rivers have been dammed for hydro power and diverted for irrigation and one inland sea drained completely. Rusty fishing boats now lie on sun baked sand.

Aral Sea's Eastern Basin Is Dry for First Time in 600 Years

Once the world's fourth largest lake, the vast Asian lake was drained for irrigation.

www.nationalgeographic.com

But what I found most interesting was the assertion that this displacement of large tracts of water, which is heavy, has altered the earth's axis. It's tilted, apparently.

Surely that would also affect climate? Man made for sure, but nothing to do with livestock emmissions.

(Sorry, no links for the programme)

didn't see yon programme, but....
did you know the gravitational pull of the water on top of Greenland is very considerable?
Without it, perversely, the sea water surrounding would fall back by many feet. tens of feet i recall.
weird eh?

as for fresh water in aquifers being 'mined' for day to day sustenance... well, how's that going to end?

 

[JP1]

Not least between China and India.

Must be over 10 years ago when I was in China witnessing the construction of the canal bringing water back up to the dry NE of China towards Beijing. Everything in China they seem to do big yet the desertification continues

 

[delilah]

This thread has been my thought process. My posts have been my meandering thoughts, influenced by all those of you kind enough to reply.
I've just realised that while we are in the town/ village halls winning the debate on livestock, we will return triumphantly to our farms to find the government have sold our buildings and fallowed/ forested our lands.
We have to recognise the deliberate harm being meted against the livestock industry and call it out. The government has got to be directly confronted now and not allowed to hide behind the excuse that they were ' following current guidance'.

Yes. But, again, that's problems. As highlighted on here ad nauseam. Is anybody interested in pursuing solutions, that's the point. Well, my point anyway. I'm out on this thread, it's just another farmer whingfest.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

I have read that the indigenous populations were not "slash and burn" hunter gatherers, rather a settled agricultural population, however, history is always written by the victors, so little was written by the Spanish about what or who was there before.

https://news.mongabay.com/2005/10/pre-columbian-amazon-supported-millions-of-people/

The domestication of Amazonia before European conquest | Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences

During the twentieth century, Amazonia was widely regarded as relatively pristine nature, little impacted by human history. This view remains popular despite mounting evidence of substantial human influence over millennial scales across the region. Here, ...

royalsocietypublishing.org

I also glanced at an article saying the Indians in the Amazon look after a lot of fruiting trees, so maybe their agriculture was based more on perennials rather than our annual system. I think we went down the wrong route when we concentrated our agriculture and food on eating grains, as we can see now with the obesity and diabetes problems.

Much as I hate to say it, maybe the answer is a paradigm shift to silvoculture system.

Silvoculture as a method of sustainable livestock production

Pastures that have shrubs and trees are more sustainable, according to new study

www.cabi.org

But whatever system, we must have large ruminants in the mix, it is only because so many people now are so divorced from where their food comes from (and politicians generally scientifically illiterate too - Maggie being the exception - and look how she is hated by some still), I can only see it is all going to end in tears, or wars, mass migration, environmental degradation, desertification, mass extinctions etc.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Yes. But, again, that's problems. As highlighted on here ad nauseam. Is anybody interested in pursuing solutions, that's the point. Well, my point anyway. I'm out on this thread, it's just another farmer whingfest.

Fair enough, but you have to have a clear understanding of the problem before you can pursue a solution.
We need to recognise, expose and campaign against the governments undermining of UK ag because there is a sound business case as well as promote its sustainability.
Winning the environmental debate will be a consequence of saving our industry because it is financially prudent to do so.