The hand over

[MrNoo]

These bullies are not unique to farming and probably exist at the head of management in companies all over the world. That doesn't mean they should be excused or justified.

I agree but on the whole most other employees in such jobs would only have to tolerate the behaviour 8-5 Monday to Friday where as in our line of work it’s 24/7.
You also don’t know any different, certainly until older when it all becomes very apparent by which time a lot of the damage has been done.
But we have to look for the positives after such a situation has occurred, very few but resilience is certainly one I have found along with an unfortunate amount of negatives!!

 

[SilliamWhale]

If you don't know who gets what you need to know. If you don't know you can't plan, you can't make it tax efficient and you could end up paying a lot.

I would say you don't want to walk away yet. You may always have a fractious relationship but you need to know where you stand.

It's not about money or kicking the old boy out it's about knowing whether it's worth staying around. Most father's still want the best for their grandchildren even if the father /son working relationship is a big strained.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Obviously from that quote it wasn't all as rosey as made out to be.

Easy to look back and realise how difficult it was for previous generation to step back.

Know of someone who's son has taken a job off farm. Wanted to go play with big shiny toys. They could tell he wasn't settled, so they said to go do what he wants. No point in trying to keep them home or it ends up with animosity between you all.

I hope it all works out for you

My Dad had total respect for what his father and especially his Grandad did, who gave up the Lead Mines in Llanbrynmair , walked with his family to Staffordshire to find a better life ,
I did row sometimes like I do with my wife , but I had total respect for him , wish he was here now

 

[betweenthelines]

OP says he's a Partner, what does the Partnership agreement say about transferring a share (ie can one partner give or leave his share to a third party without consent from the other partners?)

 

[toquark]

A lot of men tend to define themselves by their work. Retirement or the prospect of it often leads to a significant and swift decline in cognitive ability which can lead to aggression and obstinacy. I’ve seen it with my own father. The part of them which was operating at a high level for decades is suddenly switched off and they lose their sense of purpose, but also they lose perspective.

It is sad to see a very capable man who I’ve looked up to all my life decline, but I can be very thankful that we never worked together and we don't have lives and businesses intertwined. I think trying to organise that now would be a torture.

Good luck, for what it’s worth, I’d tend to agree with those who suggest an ultimatum. With two houses and some ground, you won’t be left destitute.

 

[Wombat]

Just be aware if your father lives to his 90’s you could be in your 60’s before it’s handed to you and even then it might end up skipping you..

 

[beardface]

That’s what it may come down to in the end. The response to that discussion will provide more clarity as to what you need to do, ime.

It's what I'd say. Sounds like his old man is of a particular generation that seems to find it increasingly hard to let go and hand over the show. I find you have to use tough love with them.

 

[essexpete]

Pretty much everything I have in life (materially I might add) is down to my parents and those before them. I had uncomfortable times with my Father, sometimes due to uncertainty other times due to my short fuse or his lack of reading people's emotions on occasion. As a family we did leave sorting out affairs almost too late in our parents lifetime but it was sorted. It probably was not fair in some ways to my brother. Ultimately the point I trying to make it is never too late to set things straight.
To the OP, has Father always been like that or is there a creeping change? It could be due to onset of dementia or increasing realisation of mortality. Can the OP hold ground and stop Father in his tracks with "this is not the time and place"? Walk away for a few hours? To those who suggest packing up and moving away, that could be an answer but not easy for a host of reasons including age of OP, children's schooling, partner's life, emotional investment in the family business and more.
Despite ups and downs I am grateful to my parents for their legacy and miss their presence.
Try your hardest not to let matters descend to a point of no return.

 

[glasshouse]

Handing the reigns from one generation to the next has been well documented on here, some successes down not so.

We are in the process here (or at at least I think we are) - it’s not going well to be honest. Despite doing all the feeding, shepherding, organising, all the paper work etc I still seem to be getting aggressively shouted instructions at by Father. To be honest I have kind of had enough of it, it’s not an environment for raising kids when your father keeps giving you a dressing down in front of them. Most importantly we still don’t know who will get what, I have a share in some land and own two houses, I am a partner but don’t know what will happen to the rest come the day.

Starting to worry that the rug will be pulled from under us. How have others both senior and junior handled this most tricky of issues for a family farm?

Tell the old pansy you want your share out, have bought a farm in oz and he won't see his grandkids again.
Dont wait till ur 50

 

[Nearly]

Father (now gone) was always calm and reasonable.
The odd occasion with Mum has involved me saying 'Try and imagine you didn't raise a brood of idiots'
It usually causes a pause in discussion.

 

[Hampton]

I don’t think the older generation want to let go and that’s how it is.my 84 year old mother is still in charge but I do the running of the place and buying and selling.if I want something the usual answer is you’re not having that and that’s it.I buy a lot of things out of my own pocket if I need stuff too.as for online banking I have to co sign cheques.at christmas last I said that’s it,online banking now but no we will do it after annual accountant visit in May.well nothing has changed but it annoys me paying 80/90pfor a cheque,another cost for stamp and envelope and normally copying an invoice to send back.I could add loads but I’m sure there are probably 50 plus% on here in similar situations
nick…

I got around this by buying my father an iPad and uploading the Barclays app. I pay all the bills and run the place etc, but he can check the account whenever he likes. Mum says he checks it every morning and will often say to me “I see you have paid a lot of bills” or “the vats come in”.
he hated the book work but worried we wouldn’t cope even though his system was chaos

 

[neilo]

Dont wait till ur 50

I definitely agree with that bit. I was 43 when we moved here, and I’m now 53. I wouldn’t want to put the time & energy into turning round a new place now, as I did then.

As for moving to Oz, in hindsight, we should have bought somewhere in France, rather than renting over here (not for that reason though).

 

[glasshouse]

I definitely agree with that bit. I was 43 when we moved here, and I’m now 53. I wouldn’t want to put the time & energy into turning round a new place now, as I did then.

As for moving to Oz, in hindsight, we should have bought somewhere in France, rather than renting over here (not for that reason though).

Substitute any country u choose
Further away thr better

 

[Two Tone]

I feel for you @Bill the Bass and sympathise deeply.

Imagine a similar situation where a Farm employs a manager, who has been so and a loyal employee for 25 years. The MD reaches his 80’s and starts making silly mistakes, such as paying suppliers twice or not at all. On top of which to finance his own lifestyle, uses Ltd Liability Company assets to fund his substantial House and gardens and even wants to sell vital Farming assets to continue to do so, such as a Grain-store!

On the advice of the manager and his countless pushing of him towards looking at Inheritance, the MD makes his Son a Director, but precludes him from important financial decisions. The Son is a very good businessman, having his own non-farming business, but has children of his own that are very keen on eventually having their own input into the farm. The Son can see that the manager is doing a good job and is extremely encouraging towards the manager.

In the light of the loss of BPS and introduction of ELMS, the manager, being the now only farm employee, has taken it upon himself to prepare the farm for its future. He has already started converting the farm to a Zero-till system, to not only make sure it works and saves costs, but replace the loss of BPS payments.

Ten years ago, the manager also instigated a joint-farming agreement with a neighbour to share labour and machinery, primarily for the benefit if the 2nd farmer’s youngest son to be able to farm their own farm. This agreement also involved the manager as a 3rd partner, who owns all the grass making machinery and charges its use back to both farms. However, the farm that the manager runs, earns about £10-15k annually from the agreement each year from the other farm.

Some Developer Herbert makes an offer for the Grainstore, but the Son and manager manage to fend it off because it is quickly realised that after its replacement cost and the CGT on the sale of, there would be no financial benefit whatsoever.
The other farmer, who has with the help (or vice versa!) of his oldest son, has got onto the Development ladder, hears about the fallen through development opportunity and make his own offer, despite the fact that the MD has assured both his own Son and the manager in writing that the idea is shelved.
The Son and manager learn this 6 weeks later, after negotiations are almost complete. Thankfully, again just in time, the idea is shelved.

However, this causes the immediate sensation of the share-farming agreement and consequent loss of extra farm income. Clearly, the manager cannot allow it to continue, when both other parties had colluded behind his back!
On top of which, the manager is in his early 60’s and depends on his job for his and his family’s home. He is recognised by many around him and especially the Son, as being a good farmer, with the ability and knowledge to future proof the farming business to continue its viability. He is worried himself that he is becoming too old to be employable to move to another farm management post. Yet he hangs on, not only for his own benefit, but to proudly preserve the opportunity for the MD’s own Grandchildren to take over eventually, not forgetting the IHT implications to the family eventually.
The loss of the labour sharing within the share farming agreement, is now another worry to the manager, to say the least!



What this all clearly demonstrates is that there is a time when all heads of family businesses need to learn that there will be a time when they need to hang their hats up!

It is very upsetting and extremely stressful for all sides and each generation to go through this type of situation, which should have been dealt with way before such incidents occur with a bit of forethought and sensible planning! Including when a Farm manager finds his own role becoming that of a Consigliere, rather than being allowed to concentrate on the issues of his proper job.

Everybody gets old. Some before their time!

 

[ollie989898]

Bullying is simply not on and I would adopt a zero tolerance approach to it, I don't care who it is, their age, role or level of seniority. If someone can't be polite and civil with others, a near pre-requisite in business then they can get fudged. Those days are long gone.

OP needs to lay down the law and deliver the ultimatum: either the situation improves, radically and permanently or he takes his share and walks. Life is too short.

Regarding succession plans, you need to involve your accountant and an financial adviser who will have done the process many times before. You may also need some legal advice regarding wills and the like. Your bank manager might also need to be consulted. Get these professionals around a table and they will get it straightened out in no time and save a lot of grief and potential pitfalls.

 

[glasshouse]

I could write the book on this sadly

 

[Kidds]

I never got praise off my father when growing up, I noticed but didn't dwell on it.
When I was around about 25-30 he pretty much stepped right back and asked me what to do each day.
I hadn't really thought about it until just but I never got criticism after that point either.

Complete opposite to what most on the thread have to say.
Something I often have often heard about is farmers dropping dead well before their time and the son having to take over at a very early age. I have always been thankful that wasn't my situation.

 

[Goweresque]

What this all clearly demonstrates is that there is a time when all heads of family businesses need to learn that there will be a time when they need to hang their hats up!

I've said for some time now that there needs to be an incentive in either the tax or farm payments system (or both) to push the elderly to stop being in control of farming businesses. It would probably reduce the number of deaths in farming significantly and provide new and younger blood the chance to take the industry forward. The current situation that allows 80 year olds to pretend they are 'in business' when they patently aren't in any practical sense, but just control the purse strings is a travesty of the tax system really. A ceiling should be placed on how old business partners can be, or face loosing various tax advantages or the ability to claim agricultural or environmental payments.

 

[tullah]

I've said for some time now that there needs to be an incentive in either the tax or farm payments system (or both) to push the elderly to stop being in control of farming businesses. It would probably reduce the number of deaths in farming significantly and provide new and younger blood the chance to take the industry forward. The current situation that allows 80 year olds to pretend they are 'in business' when they patently aren't in any practical sense, but just control the purse strings is a travesty of the tax system really. A ceiling should be placed on how old business partners can be, or face loosing various tax advantages or the ability to claim agricultural or environmental payments.

That's a bit harsh. We all know many 80 plus year olds who have grown a business and although they can't lift a sack of spuds their input is invaluable.

 

[Tubbylew]

I've said for some time now that there needs to be an incentive in either the tax or farm payments system (or both) to push the elderly to stop being in control of farming businesses. It would probably reduce the number of deaths in farming significantly and provide new and younger blood the chance to take the industry forward. The current situation that allows 80 year olds to pretend they are 'in business' when they patently aren't in any practical sense, but just control the purse strings is a travesty of the tax system really. A ceiling should be placed on how old business partners can be, or face loosing various tax advantages or the ability to claim agricultural or environmental payments.

You can't legislate for people to not be arseholes to their kids though can you, it's a free country afterall, and where would it end? If your infirmed or disabled in some other way, in spite of your age and you employ folk to do the things you can't, should you be stopped from farming as well? I suspect many of us have complicated relationships with our parents, and sometimes it's easier to accept that they aren't the heros we thought they were when we were small, than wish they were better behaved.