The Hidden Half of Nature by David Montgomery & Anne Bilke

[Richard III]

Anyone read this book?

I thought the farming bit in it was good and thought provoking, but the information on the biology in our gut has opened up a whole new world of thinking for me.

I found it a little slow to get going, but the further you get into it, the more you understand why they have laid it out like they have. We tend to think of most life forms on this planet as being in competition with each other, it turns out that on a microscopic level in particular, this is far from true. Symbioses between plants and microbes have been developing and become increasingly refined almost as long as plants have existed and the same applies with animals. It would seem that our broad shot kill the bad guy's approach to dealing with pests and diseases could do with reviewing somewhat. Then the effect our recent (last 50 years) diet changes have had on our gut biota and the subsequent the spin off effects on our bodies is truly shocking.

Best to read it for yourself though, then make your own mind up.

 

[No Worries]

Sounds very interesting Richard. Will you be changing your diet on the back of reading this?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Not read it but got this for xmas. Quite interesting halfway through

 

[Richard III]

Not read it but got this for xmas. Quite interesting halfway through

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Looks to me like some of the same story will be in there.

 

[Richard III]

Sounds very interesting Richard. Will you be changing your diet on the back of reading this?

If you believe the message they are saying about the gut (which I did), then I think it would be foolish not to.

Fortunately his dietary suggestions are not too prescriptive, and are not that far away from what you have already worked out is a good diet for yourself. Fibre, vegetables and go easy on the meat. Simply eat very little of all the fancy refined foods that line 75% of our supermarket shelves.

The bit that stunned me was how much we rely on having the right bacteria in our bodies, and what goes wrong when the balance is disturbed.

 

[shakerator]

If you believe the message they are saying about the gut (which I did), then I think it would be foolish not to.

Fortunately his dietary suggestions are not too prescriptive, and are not that far away from what you have already worked out is a good diet for yourself. Fibre, vegetables and go easy on the meat. Simply eat very little of all the fancy refined foods that line 75% of our supermarket shelves.

The bit that stunned me was how much we rely on having the right bacteria in our bodies, and what goes wrong when the balance is disturbed.

Richard

I went on a fermenting food course a few years ago, and sourdough baking has transformed my view of bread and nutrition in general. Fermenting veg in brine is so simple also. I look forward to reading this

So much faffing around in our industry to create "value" that's actually devaluing our health

 

[RTK Farmer]

Anyone care to cut to the chase and list 5 or so should eats and don't eats or is it more complecated than that. I've got so many soil books to read it'll be a while before I can get yo the gut!

 

[Simon C]

Thanks Richard, ordered a copy from Amazon this morning.

 

[Richard III]

Anyone care to cut to the chase and list 5 or so should eats and don't eats or is it more complecated than that. I've got so many soil books to read it'll be a while before I can get yo the gut!

The book is about far more than just the gut, it covers an enormous amount of ground. From the history of how science has got to where we are now, to some of the latest thinking on the microbiology of soil and our guts. Liebig, Albrecht, Pasteur and many others get a mention.

If you want to improve your health, just eat more veg and fibre (preferably whole grain) and less processed starch and sugars, but best of all read the book and understand why this is probably very good advice to take.

 

[Simon C]

The book is about far more than just the gut, it covers an enormous amount of ground. From the history of how science has got to where we are now, to some of the latest thinking on the microbiology of soil and our guts. Liebig, Albrecht, Pasteur and many others get a mention.

If you want to improve your health, just eat more veg and fibre (preferably whole grain) and less processed starch and sugars, but best of all read the book and understand why this is probably very good advice to take.

I remember reading somewhere in an article about probiotics and these fortified yogurts that they are all very well but the best thing to do is just eat a bowl of porridge every day which will promote all the best stomach bacteria.

 

[Richard III]

I remember reading somewhere in an article about probiotics and these fortified yogurts that they are all very well but the best thing to do is just eat a bowl of porridge every day which will promote all the best stomach bacteria.

That sounds about right to me, probiotics can put some of the good guys in place, but if there isn't the right food there when they arrive, what is the point?

 

[Simon C]

That sounds about right to me, probiotics can put some of the good guys in place, but if there isn't the right food there when they arrive, what is the point?

This is the problem I am toying with at the moment regarding our soil biology. We can keep applying good biology with compost, compost teas and all these biologicals but if conditions aren't right, they won't last long. But we can also create the right conditions and give them some food, (molasses, humic and fulvic acids etc.) and then just leave our natural native biology to grow and take over.

The trouble is we are always knocking the good stuff back with chemicals and nitrogen, but by how much, we really don't know. There will always be a certain amount of everything that survives, ready to re-collonise under the right conditions.

I have tried just about everything there is regarding soil biology inoculation and feeding but the only one that makes me stand back and say "wow, that is amazing" is my own, best made compost, even when applied at very low rates. Compost is everything, it is an inoculation, it provides food for microbes and unlike anything else it provides and safe home for them while growing and re-colonising. Using everything else just seems to be based on theory, not backed up by trials results and done because it feels the right thing to do.

I am not trying to knock anyone, there are some really good people in this country pushing ideas and products, but we have a whole lot to learn yet about what works and what doesn't.

 

[Richard III]

This is the problem I am toying with at the moment regarding our soil biology. We can keep applying good biology with compost, compost teas and all these biologicals but if conditions aren't right, they won't last long. But we can also create the right conditions and give them some food, (molasses, humic and fulvic acids etc.) and then just leave our natural native biology to grow and take over.

The trouble is we are always knocking the good stuff back with chemicals and nitrogen, but by how much, we really don't know. There will always be a certain amount of everything that survives, ready to re-collonise under the right conditions.

I have tried just about everything there is regarding soil biology inoculation and feeding but the only one that makes me stand back and say "wow, that is amazing" is my own, best made compost, even when applied at very low rates. Compost is everything, it is an inoculation, it provides food for microbes and unlike anything else it provides and safe home for them while growing and re-colonising. Using everything else just seems to be based on theory, not backed up by trials results and done because it feels the right thing to do.

I am not trying to knock anyone, there are some really good people in this country pushing ideas and products, but we have a whole lot to learn yet about what works and what doesn't.

What you are saying just ties in so well with what is in the book.

My only experience of good compost is what I saw in your field all those years ago, may be I should make the effort to try and make some myself. The book has got me thinking more about growing lower input crops, such as oats and triticale, but there would probably still enough bad stuff going on to screw things up. Currently, I reckon I can usually get away with about 2/3rds of the inputs most use, but in reality this probably only makes a small difference to how disrupted the soil biology is. Hopefully at some point in the future people will look back at how we currently breed wheat varieties that can't look after themselves, and then chuck the kitchen sink at them, and think 'what the hell were they thinking of?'

I doubt the book will provide you with any direct answers, but I'm sure it will give you plenty of encouragement to keep working in the direction you are currently going.

 

[SoilMan]

Richard out of interest when you say you use 2/3rds of the inputs most use, are you taking about N, Agchems, seed?

And everything you guys are mentioning here is exactly the reason i have recently taken on an allotment to try and produce as much of my own food as possible.

It mainly arose from discussions with the fiance and her sister (they arent on this forum so i can broadcast this). They both at some point or another suffer from IBS or some form of stomach upset blah blah blah! And the excuse/reason will always be gluten intolernace, lactose intolerance or some other form of intolerance. When actually i believe it is the shite we eat, now we have lessened (not removed entirely) the amount of processed food we eat. Then the biggest step was adding veggies to every meal we eat even making your own sauces makes a big difference. Im surprised how many people buy tomato based sources when it is cheaper, healthier and dead easy to make your own and the taste is 100 times better (even when i am allowed to make it). The next step for us will be to grow our own veg without chemicals, i'm even trying to look more into bio-dynamics but that is a whole new level/extreme!

I dont post very often on here as i am a soil advisor working with biologicals and dont want to come across as biased or force my views on anyone as they will probably be percieved as biased and having an alterior motive. However I enjoy reading most of the things posted on this forum and seeing how you as farmers overcome the obstacles that you face.

 

[Richard III]

Richard out of interest when you say you use 2/3rds of the inputs most use, are you taking about N, Agchems, seed?

Seed rates are the same, but no seed dressing. Typically no insecticides, then lower herbicide and fungicide use.

And everything you guys are mentioning here is exactly the reason i have recently taken on an allotment to try and produce as much of my own food as possible.

It mainly arose from discussions with the fiance and her sister (they arent on this forum so i can broadcast this). They both at some point or another suffer from IBS or some form of stomach upset blah blah blah! And the excuse/reason will always be gluten intolernace, lactose intolerance or some other form of intolerance. When actually i believe it is the shite we eat, now we have lessened (not removed entirely) the amount of processed food we eat. Then the biggest step was adding veggies to every meal we eat even making your own sauces makes a big difference. Im surprised how many people buy tomato based sources when it is cheaper, healthier and dead easy to make your own and the taste is 100 times better (even when i am allowed to make it). The next step for us will be to grow our own veg without chemicals, i'm even trying to look more into bio-dynamics but that is a whole new level/extreme!

What you are doing is very interesting and I hope the changes make a real difference. I've wondered for years about why so many people suffer from IBS, there is clearly something very wrong. I've just read the NHS advice for IBS, if you have the 'loose variety', you might be able to manage your symptoms by reducing the fibre in your diet.

One of the theories put forward in the book (with scientific proof, and I'm assuming also the one @SilliamWhale is currently reading), is that eating the wrong foods changes the microbial balance in your colon. Your immune system turns out to be very tied in with what is going on in there and instead of ticking over quietly becomes permanently slightly raised, this substantially increases your chances of developing any of the autoimmune diseases, diabetes, allergies and so on.

I've been meaning to have a go at a veg patch for years now, but unfortunately I seem to suffer from a disorder called laziness, I'm not sure if the book has a cure for that.

 

[Chasingmytail]

We cannot live without bacteria and I have read some interesting facts about it. we eat far too much grain thats what is killing people and giving them all these modern illness and aliments. The new food pyramid of veg at the base with breads, pasta, grains at the top (minimal). I agree with the bacteria I guess all the foods that are grown on mass, stored and flown across the world cannot hold much nutrition and the act of buying local or growing your own has its benefits. There is a lot to be said for the local eating, eating honey from your hive and building a natural resistance from your own locality where now we eat from around the world - got to be something in that. If you look at the quality of dairy there cannot be much good bacteria in that anymore what with commercial breeding, pasteurization, plastic packing and shelf life it all comes at a price. We have our own Jersey cow and the children have very fresh organic milk. Also produce live yogurt. Having lived with mild IBS, Fibro and some Chronic fatigue I do think there is a bigger picture about our lifestyle and environment not just foods.

I do laugh when I hear people saying they have a balanced diet or because they dont drink or smoke are therefore healthy. Seems to be the message is still not getting through. As for food intolerance thats another word be thrown about which only exists if you are physically ill from a food. I have a friend who will only eat Soya milk (supposedly diary intolerant) yet I make biscuits with butter she scoffs them and will devour a box of the cheapest nastiest box of chocolate.

 

[martian]

Thanks for the tip off @Richard III , really enjoyed the book. I heard Gabe Brown quote some friend of his on one of the you-tube videos: 'If you want to make small changes, change how you do things. If you want to make big changes, then change how you see things.' That book is very much one of those things that makes you change how you see things, whether you want to or not!

I agree that it started with that slightly embarrassing folksiness that Americans can't quite resist, but they admirably stayed away from mawkishness and built their argument beautifully. It turns out that the soil isn't the stomach of the plant, so much as the colon of the plant. Big difference...

 

[Richard III]

@martian really pleased you enjoyed the book and got something out of it.

'If you want to make small changes, change how you do things. If you want to make big changes, then change how you see things.'

Great quote, it just seems so apt after reading the book.

 

[Feldspar]

I have a friend who was very interested in no-till, cover cropping, soil biology etc. and then became interested in gut biology. He sent me this talk as a quick way of dipping into it:

https://www.ted.com/talks/rob_knight_how_our_microbes_make_us_who_we_are?language=en

Having just taken a course of antibiotics, and whilst still on pain killers that seem to mess around with the digestive system, I was trying to work out what I should do to get things back to normal order. From the talk it looks like children did recover a typical gut biology after antibiotics without any need for what the human equivalent of innoculants are (fecal pellets probably).

 

[martian]

I have a friend who was very interested in no-till, cover cropping, soil biology etc. and then became interested in gut biology. He sent me this talk as a quick way of dipping into it:

https://www.ted.com/talks/rob_knight_how_our_microbes_make_us_who_we_are?language=en

Having just taken a course of antibiotics, and whilst still on pain killers that seem to mess around with the digestive system, I was trying to work out what I should do to get things back to normal order. From the talk it looks like children did recover a typical gut biology after antibiotics without any need for what the human equivalent of innoculants are (fecal pellets probably).

Good TED talk, thanks. Rob Knight has a slightly annoying delivery, I found myself dropping off once or twice, but the story is extraordinary. We are, indeed, on the cusp of some radical changes -for the better- with medicine and farming. Exciting times!