The Meaningful Vote

[Cowabunga]

I dont think you've got a clue.

If the EU is unwilling to move do you think Jeremy's beard is going to swing it ?

Why should the EU move? They are protecting their own and we are no longer one of them. Or we are not for the purposes of the exit negotiations at any rate.

What I cannot fathom is why people like you, who may even consider themselves 'I'm alright Jack', would contemplate letting a bunch of well to do toffs divide and destroy this Country and specifically the industry within which you and your family and friends live and work. You might wish that this were not the result of a hard Brexit, but I can assure you that the industry will be decimated outside of arable areas within eighteen months to two years of a hard brexit. That is the reality which you really must face. No 'cost saving' or fancy management will save the industry from this. The banks will be in and the economy as a whole will spiral into a collapse far worse than most pundits dare to talk about.
More and more people are beginning to realise this. Which is why the politicians are now panicking and running around like headless chickens to try and avert the very real possibility of a hard Brexit. They cannot escape from their responsibility to not let their constituents tumble into abject poverty unlike anything seen since the 1930's, which is what more and more of them know will happen if a Hard Brexit is allowed to happen.

 

[Cowabunga]

So you pretend to know the full circumstances of staying in the EU.

David Cameron left for good reason .. given recent coverage of an EU army, forced entry to the EURO and the proposed financial straight jacket - which our ecomony depends on - I don't think you demonstrate an understanding of what he has done.

I would have prefered he stayed but maybe Theresa May IS the right person.

TIme will tell.

What you print in that first paragraph is very telling of the rubbish you have swallowed, hook line and sinker. While we were in the EU, and probably even after we are out, there is no prospect whatsoever of a EU army. Heck most of the EU countries don't spend a fraction of their already agreed proportion of their GDP on their defence as it is. The UK has [had] the power of veto on it anyhow and certainly would not contemplate joining the Euro under any circumstances any more than we are a part of the Shengen security area for free travel.

I have nothing against Teresa May except her intransigent refusal to give Parliament and the British people the final say on any agreement or lack thereof. She is disingenuous in claiming that this has no precedent. Didn't Scotland and Wales vote more than once for their national referendum results? I believe so. Indeed she herself voted against Welsh devolution after a significant referendum win in favour of devolution, which immediately classes her as a hypocrite.

Scotland will certainly be pushing and could get yet another referendum on full independence after this debacle, and who could blame them if they decided to get out this time. They voted to stay in the EU after all. Certainly if Ireland is treated more favourably, Scotland will be rightly pee'd off. Ireland could be expected to explode once more into widespread violence, possibly extending to the English [not Welsh or Scottish] mainland.

The question you should ask yourself is whether YOU understand the issues at stake here. Thus far you have demonstrated a completely shallow lack of understanding of either the narrow or the wider implications.

 

[wanton dwarf]

Why should the EU move? They are protecting their own and we are no longer one of them. Or we are not for the purposes of the exit negotiations at any rate.

What I cannot fathom is why people like you, who may even consider themselves 'I'm alright Jack', would contemplate letting a bunch of well to do toffs divide and destroy this Country and specifically the industry within which you and your family and friends live and work. You might wish that this were not the result of a hard Brexit, but I can assure you that the industry will be decimated outside of arable areas within eighteen months to two years of a hard brexit. That is the reality which you really must face. No 'cost saving' or fancy management will save the industry from this. The banks will be in and the economy as a whole will spiral into a collapse far worse than most pundits dare to talk about.
More and more people are beginning to realise this. Which is why the politicians are now panicking and running around like headless chickens to try and avert the very real possibility of a hard Brexit. They cannot escape from their responsibility to not let their constituents tumble into abject poverty unlike anything seen since the 1930's, which is what more and more of them know will happen if a Hard Brexit is allowed to happen.

What a load of bull.

All the goods from outside of the EU already pay tariffs.

It's only exports and imports to and from the EU which will be affected.

That is a negotiation which is quite easy to solve .. it's a matter of will power to do so on both sides. Looks to me as though the ball is now in the EU's court.

£39 Billion would give most adults about £1000 each. More than enough money I would say to tide the problems of a WTO Brexit past 2020 .. which is the time the transition period ends anyway.

As regards 1930s .. well the closest we came to that was with Gordon Brown's "End of Boom & Bust" in 2008.

 

[Cowabunga]

What a load of bull.

All the goods from outside of the EU already pay tariffs.

It's only exports and imports to and from the EU which will be affected.

That is a negotiation which is quite easy to solve .. it's a matter of will power to do so on both sides. Looks to me as though the ball is now in the EU's court.

£39 Billion would give most adults about £1000 each. More than enough money I would say to tide the problems of a WTO Brexit past 2020 .. which is the time the transition period ends anyway.

As regards 1930s .. well the closest we came to that was with Gordon Brown's "End of Boom & Bust" in 2008.

Once again I will highlight the absurdity of even your first paragraph. Once we are out of the EU with a hard brexit, which means no immediate agreement with the EU [I seem to need to explain even the most simple things], than the EU are certainly free to raise tariffs on our exports. Indeed we are also free to raise tariffs on goods imported, or not. It will be a free for all for a while but the only thing have to offer in reciprocal trade with countries outside the EU in order to have agreements with them to fairly freely export our products and services, is the reciprocal free of tariff imports of their agricultural products. Primarily meat and dairy products.

Have you not noticed the large scale migration of businesses from the UK to other EU countries already? Obviously not from your little bubble of an existence. Believe me when I tell you that UK agriculture with its widespread tiny businesses employing very few relatively speaking will be sacrificed without the powers that be thinking twice, in order to safeguard more jobs in other more dense industries.

£39Billion is a drop in the ocean if the tax income of the UK, particularly from financial services takes a dive. While 39Billion may impress you, it really isn't important compared to keeping the economy growing, people employed and tax income flowing.

Your reference to 2008 in relation to the 1930's once again highlights starkly how out of touch with reality and 'feather bedded' you must be. That the hardship of no job prospect, no income and losing your home, not being able to support your family and with the State being unable to afford a safety net has never entered your imagination.

I would not be surprised if, once again in history, that large numbers of impoverished British were forced to emigrate to find a better life if a hard Brexit were to be allowed to happen.

Having said that, I have some residual faith that the majority of British politicians have at least some morality and sense of responsibility and will do their utmost to stop a hard brexit from happening and impoverishing the UK, if indeed the UK could be held together if allowed to happen. There must come a time when Parliament comes together and asserts it power to stop this madness.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

He should also have ensured that the result depended on a 'significant' majority, such as 80:20 for. What he did was extremely divisive and damaging to the economy and to the ordinary people of the UK, as has been witnessed ever since.

I cannot emphasise enough how much his actions will adversely effect the UK both economically and politically at home and internationally for decades to come. I thought it before the referendum and I certainly have it reinforced at this time.

Jesus

 

[wanton dwarf]

What you print in that first paragraph is very telling of the rubbish you have swallowed, hook line and sinker. While we were in the EU, and probably even after we are out, there is no prospect whatsoever of a EU army. Heck most of the EU countries don't spend a fraction of their already agreed proportion of their GDP on their defence as it is. The UK has [had] the power of veto on it anyhow and certainly would not contemplate joining the Euro under any circumstances any more than we are a part of the Shengen security area for free travel.

I have nothing against Teresa May except her intransigent refusal to give Parliament and the British people the final say on any agreement or lack thereof. She is disingenuous in claiming that this has no precedent. Didn't Scotland and Wales vote more than once for their national referendum results? I believe so. Scotland will certainly be pushing and could get yet another referendum on full independence after this debacle, and who could blame them if they decided to get out this time. They voted to stay in the EU after all. Certainly if Ireland is treated more favourably, Scotland will be rightly pee'd off. Ireland could be expected to explode once more into widespread violence, possibly extending to the English [not Welsh of Scottish] mainland.

The question you should ask yourself is whether YOU understand the issues at stake here. Thus far you have demonstrated a completely shallow lack of understanding of either the narrow or the wider implications.

The EU has operated 2 brigades from my knowledge since Tony Blair and his friend Catherine Ashton was EU High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs & Security Policy/Vice-President of the European Commission

As regards the "Veto" .. read below.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...quarters-plans-backed-by-Baroness-Ashton.html

"Britain last year blocked moves to create an EU military operations HQ (OHQ), with William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, threatening to veto the plan over concerns that it would rival Nato command.

This sparked the "big five" to seek ways of bypassing a British veto via a little-known legal mechanism. France eventually backed down so as not to jeopardise the Lancaster House bilateral defence accord between Britain and France – to the "chagrin" of its main EU partners."


You do realise there are general elections every 5 years ? The people will have their say then anyway at that time. There is no need to have another referendum or general election unless parliament becomes moribund.

Parliament ? Well it got a vote just .. did it help ? has Parliament helped over the past 2.5 years ? I would say no.

I don't see anything in your post about solving leaving the EU other than threats about regions leaving .. which they always have the right to do so regardless of being in or out of the EU.

I see you make no reference to 50+ million English people becoming violent - do they have no say in their country then ? Perhaps you ought to take a long think about what they want.

If the regions want to Leave the Union then get a move on. Preferrably before the next referendum if there is to be one. That way at least we'll get a result that is meaningful.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Why would the EU ever give us a good deal when they read alm this crap written by remainers,
As they knew without the support of remainers they could never get a deal through .well done remainers. Your doom and gloom as won the day
I take my hat off to you

 

[dazza b]

Feck it I’m ringing fifa up I want a replay between England and Croatia I didn’t like the result so I want it replayed

 

[Cowabunga]

The EU has operated 2 brigades from my knowledge since Tony Blair and his friend Catherine Ashton was EU High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs & Security Policy/Vice-President of the European Commission

As regards the "Veto" .. read below.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...quarters-plans-backed-by-Baroness-Ashton.html

"Britain last year blocked moves to create an EU military operations HQ (OHQ), with William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, threatening to veto the plan over concerns that it would rival Nato command.

This sparked the "big five" to seek ways of bypassing a British veto via a little-known legal mechanism. France eventually backed down so as not to jeopardise the Lancaster House bilateral defence accord between Britain and France – to the "chagrin" of its main EU partners."


You do realise there are general elections every 5 years ? The people will have their say then anyway at that time. There is no need to have another referendum or general election unless parliament becomes moribund.

Parliament ? Well it got a vote just .. did it help ? has Parliament helped over the past 2.5 years ? I would say no.

I don't see anything in your post about solving leaving the EU other than threats about regions leaving .. which they always have the right to do so regardless of being in or out of the EU.

I see you make no reference to 50+ million English people becoming violent - do they have no say in their country then ? Perhaps you ought to take a long think about what they want.

If the regions want to Leave the Union then get a move on. Preferrably before the next referendum if there is to be one. That way at least we'll get a result that is meaningful.

One of the reasons that the EU are even contemplating a European army is because they are not convinced of the long term commitment of the USA to the defence of its allies. With good cause too, I might add, if you look at the American experience of many countries over the last 120 years where they blow with the wind.
So even if a EU army of some kind were formed, it would not be much different to NATO as it currently is, in all probability, except it having the recourses and command structure that had no need of immediate US military involvement.
Another benefit would be that European friendly forces would work together jointly which would significantly diminish the chance of them fighting each other.

Here on the little island of the UK we are somewhat geographically insulated from the very real potential conflicts within Central Europe which might, if they were to flare up, cause immense disruption and even nowadays an invasion from the East as has been graphically demonstrated in Georgia, Crimea and Ukraine in general. These places might seem insignificant to some 'little Englanders' but they are of supreme importance to our little island's security and future prosperity, especially that of our children and grandchildren who I hope never have to suffer a war again, let alone 'Total War'.

Again, I have to emphasise that we are stronger, safer and more prosperous together than as competitors and adversaries.

To go in an isolationist direction is exactly what our adversaries, and believe me they are adversaries who think nothing of using banned chemical weapons and assassinations on our own soil, want. They know, even if you don't, that small and fractious is weakness, while united and determined in a common cause is strength.

 

[wanton dwarf]

Once again I will highlight the absurdity of even your first paragraph. Once we are out of the EU with a hard brexit, which means no immediate agreement with the EU [I seem to need to explain even the most simple things], than the EU are certainly free to raise tariffs on our exports. Indeed we are also free to raise tariffs on goods imported, or not. It will be a free for all for a while but the only thing have to offer in reciprocal trade with countries outside the EU in order to have agreements with them to fairly freely export our products and services, is the reciprocal free of tariff imports of their agricultural products. Primarily meat and dairy products.

Have you not noticed the large scale migration of businesses from the UK to other EU countries already? Obviously not from your little bubble of an existence. Believe me when I tell you that UK agriculture with its widespread tiny businesses employing very few relatively speaking will be sacrificed without the powers that be thinking twice, in order to safeguard more jobs in other more dense industries.

£39Billion is a drop in the ocean if the tax income of the UK, particularly from financial services takes a dive. While 39Billion may impress you, it really isn't important compared to keeping the economy growing, people employed and tax income flowing.

Your reference to 2008 in relation to the 1930's once again highlights starkly how out of touch with reality and 'feather bedded' you must be. That the hardship of no job prospect, no income and losing your home, not being able to support your family and with the State being unable to afford a safety net has never entered your imagination.

I would not be surprised if, once again in history, that large numbers of impoverished British were forced to emigrate to find a better life if a hard Brexit were to be allowed to happen.

Having said that, I have some residual faith that the majority of British politicians have at least some morality and sense of responsibility and will do their utmost to stop a hard brexit from happening and impoverishing the UK, if indeed the UK could be held together if allowed to happen. There must come a time when Parliament comes together and asserts it power to stop this madness.

WTO rules are not a free for all. In fact tariffs cannot be applied differently between nation states. So if a tariff is applied to the USA then WTO rules state that tariff must apply to everyone else.

Unless there is a free trade deal.

WTO rules state that in the dispute of tariffs then existing tariffs apply for 10 years whilst a new deal is negotiated .. in which case trade with the EU remains as is until a new trade deal is created.

If you can point out these businesses leaving the UK then do so. I've not seen any significant businesses doing so .. I think it amounts to a few hundred bankers. Jaguar Landrover began thier move about 3 years before Brexit to Slovakia.

Well if £39 Billion is nothing then you can pay it.

You are not in a position to comment about my financial affairs.
You have no idea of how I have lived.

Parliament cannot do anything because Parliament cannot create legislation .. so we leave on 29th March unless the Conservatives create legislation to do something else.

 

[Cowabunga]

Why would the EU ever give us a good deal when they read alm this crap written by remainers,
As they knew without the support of remainers they could never get a deal through .well done remainers. Your doom and gloom as won the day
I take my hat off to you

Oh Lord above! The projection of blame had to start sooner than later.
Mrs May has a deal. It was never going to be as good as remaining but it might alleviate the destruction of a hard brexit. It satisfies nobody and the Irish issue was always from the very beginning going to be completely impossible to sort out to either Northern Ireland or Scotland's satisfaction.

You cannot possibly now start blaming remainers for this shambles because if not for your brexit vote there would be anything to be shambolic about. You were told, if only by me, two years ago that this would happen, and you denied it until now that you can't deny it any longer, and now, like blaming the EU for everything previously , you are blaming those that lost the vote rather than yourself for putting the UK in this position. Take responsibility. You are incorrigible man! Behave yourself!

1. If you have a short attention span, skip straight to the end of the fourth minute where your hero is taken up on things his oft-quoted mentor has said will happen to industry and agriculture. Rees Mogg cannot avoid the question and cannot deny it and indeed tacitly confirms it. Agriculture and industry will be decimated. That means 'ruined'. Fucced!

 

[Cowabunga]

Parliament cannot do anything because Parliament cannot create legislation .. so we leave on 29th March unless the Conservatives create legislation to do something else.

In that one sentence you argue against yourself. So Parliament cannot create legislation but that is only unless Parliament creates legislation to do something else. You must realise how patently absurd your point is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46854002




If you have a short attention span, skip to the end of the fourth minute in this video posted tonight and is essential listening.

 

[wanton dwarf]

One of the reasons that the EU are even contemplating a European army is because they are not convinced of the long term commitment of the USA to the defence of its allies. With good cause too, I might add, if you look at the American experience of many countries over the last 120 years where they blow with the wind.
So even if a EU army of some kind were formed, it would not be much different to NATO as it currently is, in all probability, except it having the recourses and command structure that had no need of immediate US military involvement.
Another benefit would be that European friendly forces would work together jointly which would significantly diminish the chance of them fighting each other.

Here on the little island of the UK we are somewhat geographically insulated from the very real potential conflicts within Central Europe which might, if they were to flare up, cause immense disruption and even nowadays an invasion from the East as has been graphically demonstrated in Georgia, Crimea and Ukraine in general. These places might seem insignificant to some 'little Englanders' but they are of supreme importance to our little island's security and future prosperity, especially that of our children and grandchildren who I hope never have to suffer a war again, let alone 'Total War'.

Again, I have to emphasise that we are stronger, safer and more prosperous together than as competitors and adversaries.

To go in an isolationist direction is exactly what our adversaries, and believe me they are adversaries who think nothing of using banned chemical weapons and assassinations on our own soil, want. They know, even if you don't, that small and fractious is weakness, while united and determined in a common cause is strength.

So convinced that Germany funds Russia by buying Russian Gas and Oil.

Whilst the UK spends 2% of its GDP protecting Europe .. Germany pays less than 1% and funds Europe's "enemy".

The rest of the comments about the USA are beneath you .. even I know without the USA then Russia would have won the cold war. Without USA military might Europe has very little in equipment and technology to resist Russia.

As regards Europe .. the UK has been involved in mutiple conflicts other than WW1 & WW2 to stop European wars. The Uk has the largest army in the EU.

Civil war in the Ukraine was initiated by giving opposition parties in the Ukraine 5 Billion Euros and threatening the Russian port in the Crimea. How was this even responsible given the fact no bureacrat in the EU was ever going to fight Russia ? Who was going to do the dying ? The USA and UK.

"Little Englanders" .. if Englanders are "Little" then given the fact we pay to fund not only 27 other EU countries we also fund Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.

What does that make YOU ?

If the people of the UK want to reduce their exposure to the rest of the world it is their right to do so.

 

[wanton dwarf]

In that one sentence you argue against yourself. So Parliament cannot create legislation but that is only unless Parliament creates legislation to do something else. You must realise how patently absurd your point is.

Government creates legislation.

Parliament votes on legislation.

Parliament cannot vote on something they cannot create.

 

[wanton dwarf]

I have heard this before. Cereals are already at zero tariffs.

The point James makes only applies if the UK is turned into a tax haven in a similar fashion to Ireland to take corporation tax from the rest of the world AND you reduce tariffs to gain cheap imports at the expense of industry and agriculture the UK.

Is that Conservative policy ?

No.

Would any party survive an election based on such policies ?

No.

 

[Cowabunga]

If the people of the UK want to reduce their exposure to the rest of the world it is their right to do so.

They don't. You do. Besides which is is an oxymoron. The UK is part of the world and cannot be isolated from it. Not unless you want us to copy North Korea.

I have no truck with extreme right wing politics, so will leave your diatribe alone apart from the above pertinent comment.

 

[Cowabunga]

I have heard this before. Cereals are already at zero tariffs.

The point James makes only applies if the UK is turned into a tax haven in a similar fashion to Ireland to take corporation tax from the rest of the world AND you reduce tariffs to gain cheap imports at the expense of industry and agriculture the UK.

Is that Conservative policy ?

No.

Would any party survive an election based on such policies ?

No.

Rees Moggs whole promise is of cheaper goods and food in particular. There is no ambiguity or doubt in his stance or his policy or indeed his ambition whatsoever. That is it there in that one challenging interview with no nonsense and in a nutshell.

Oh and by the way, you are incorrect about cereal tariffs. You can easily print inaccuracies in the hope that nobody knows better but the true position is that the import duty is fixed on the basis of the difference between the effective EU intervention price for cereals multiplied by 1.55 and a representative cif (i.e. cost, insurance and freight) import price for these cereals at the port of Rotterdam. At the current moment, or at least until recently, some cereals, including maize, sorghum and rye have an import tariff of €5.32 per tonne. There are similar provisions for tariffs on other cereals if the price ratio hits the requisite limit.

 

[wanton dwarf]

Rees Moggs whole promise is of cheaper goods and food in particular. There is no ambiguity or doubt in his stance or his policy or indeed his ambition whatsoever. That is it there in that one challenging interview with no nonsense and in a nutshell.

Oh and by the way, you are incorrect about cereal tariffs and ignore the non-tariff barriers.

Food from where ?

Bananas ? Oranges ? Lemons ? Avocados ? Rice ? Cinamon ? Spices ?

Perhaps you would be wise to be specific rather than spreading generalisations.

There is ambiguity in your representation that's self evident.

Okay demonstrate both the tariffs and the quotas on Cereals using the EU website on tariffs.

 

[Pond digger]

Why should there be a second referendum? Any good reasons

I’m sounding a bit of a parrot now, but if the consequences of leave/remain have become significantly clearer, then surely a second vote is justifiable. This is such a momentous decision, we really do need to be as sure as we can be that we’re doing the right thing.

 

[wanton dwarf]

To go in an isolationist direction is exactly what our adversaries, and believe me they are adversaries who think nothing of using banned chemical weapons and assassinations on our own soil, want. They know, even if you don't, that small and fractious is weakness, while united and determined in a common cause is strength.

If the people of the UK want to reduce their exposure to the rest of the world it is their right to do so.

They don't. You do. Besides which is is an oxymoron. The UK is part of the world and cannot be isolated from it. Not unless you want us to copy North Korea.

I have no truck with extreme right wing politics, so will leave your diatribe alone apart from the above pertinent comment.

You said that we were heading in an "Isolationist direction" .. I pointed out we live in a democracy over which you have no control and if people want to reduce their exposure, to immigration for example, they will.

"Extreme right wing politics" seems to be an infatuation of the left .. I suggest the left stop confusion over personal free will with the "Far Right" .. as it is pointed out to Owen below .. the far right barely exists in the UK, unlike France & Germany & Italy.

But of course the far Left need the far right because otherwise their extremism looks pretty silly.