The NI/ROI Protocol

thewalrus

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Northern Ireland
CD9B2861-4331-402D-A7A0-17AC19FD17CF.jpeg
 

Farm buy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Good points raised in that article.

However I do wish those who voted for Brexit would take at least some of the collective blame for the current situation. There was plenty of warning before the vote about the repercussions of a customs border appearing somewhere and all was dismissed as project fear.

Something that seems to be lost on Unionism is that the privately educated elite that make up the swingers and doers of the Tory party do not view Unionist representatives as British and Nationalist/Republicans as Irish, we are all paddy’s, paddy’s of various different tribes but still paddy’s.

Tribal Paddy’s are a problem, if an easy route exists to make the problem appear less difficult it will be taken. This is an undeniable blind spot that the DUP in particular seem to have.
The Paddys have no problems with import or export ,the only difference now is that the ferries are running directly to europe as well as uk ports
 
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thewalrus

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Northern Ireland
Oh dear
The UK mainland, another country, really? :scratchhead:
I thought that while there was a Union that we were all part of the same Sovereign Country.

What chance has the union got if you are distancing yourselves already?

Northern Ireland is a country in its own right as are England Scotland and Wales
 
Northern Ireland is a country in its own right as are England Scotland and Wales
As someone who cares nothing about the union one way or the other, I've always classed the UK as one country, it's interesting to hear that others don't, and I certainly wouldn't class produce from another part of the UK as being from another country.

If you class yourselves separate from other parts of the UK checks are needed.
 

The Agrarian

Member
Location
Co Antrim
I have never distinguished between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and being separate in anything other than name. I am a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, or at least that's what my passport says.

It would be a long list if I bothered to ask her, but the missus has had loads of potential orders stopped either at the point of purchase, before, or cancelled afterwards, due to the problems arising from the protocol. Clothes, shoes, plants, seeds, furniture, educational resources and so on...

Couriers do not want to know either, which is half the problem I think.

The funny thing is, nationalists, the majority of whom supposedly wouldn't have voted for Brexit, should be the ones most up in arms about the problems with trade, as the entirely innocent victims. But it seems they are willing to tolerate in silence their rights being curtailed in this case - and yet were shouting all over the place when the danger being warned about was curtailment of rights due to a hard Irish border. Can shout loud enough about rights when it suits their politics. That smacks of hypocrisy and spite. More than happy to let their Unionist neighbours, many of whom didn't vote for Brexit either, swing on the end of this trade and constitutional rope, despite yes even the DUP standing against a hard Irish border during the negotiations.

No reciprocation. No community spirit. Bitter nationalist sectarianism is alive and well, and ensures no hope of real healing of conflict in this generation either. This is the elephant in the room that no one is talking about.
 

Farm buy

Member
Livestock Farmer
I have never distinguished between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and being separate in anything other than name. I am a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, or at least that's what my passport says.

It would be a long list if I bothered to ask her, but the missus has had loads of potential orders stopped either at the point of purchase, before, or cancelled afterwards, due to the problems arising from the protocol. Clothes, shoes, plants, seeds, furniture, educational resources and so on...

Couriers do not want to know either, which is half the problem I think.

The funny thing is, nationalists, the majority of whom supposedly wouldn't have voted for Brexit, should be the ones most up in arms about the problems with trade, as the entirely innocent victims. But it seems they are willing to tolerate in silence their rights being curtailed in this case - and yet were shouting all over the place when the danger being warned about was curtailment of rights due to a hard Irish border. Can shout loud enough about rights when it suits their politics. That smacks of hypocrisy and spite. More than happy to let their Unionist neighbours, many of whom didn't vote for Brexit either, swing on the end of this trade and constitutional rope, despite yes even the DUP standing against a hard Irish border during the negotiations.

No reciprocation. No community spirit. Bitter nationalist sectarianism is alive and well, and ensures no hope of real healing of conflict in this generation either. This is the elephant in the room that no one is talking about.
 

Farm buy

Member
Livestock Farmer
I have never distinguished between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and being separate in anything other than name. I am a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, or at least that's what my passport says.

It would be a long list if I bothered to ask her, but the missus has had loads of potential orders stopped either at the point of purchase, before, or cancelled afterwards, due to the problems arising from the protocol. Clothes, shoes, plants, seeds, furniture, educational resources and so on...

Couriers do not want to know either, which is half the problem I think.

The funny thing is, nationalists, the majority of whom supposedly wouldn't have voted for Brexit, should be the ones most up in arms about the problems with trade, as the entirely innocent victims. But it seems they are willing to tolerate in silence their rights being curtailed in this case - and yet were shouting all over the place when the danger being warned about was curtailment of rights due to a hard Irish border. Can shout loud enough about rights when it suits their politics. That smacks of hypocrisy and spite. More than happy to let their Unionist neighbours, many of whom didn't vote for Brexit either, swing on the end of this trade and constitutional rope, despite yes even the DUP standing against a hard Irish border during the negotiations.

No reciprocation. No community spirit. Bitter nationalist sectarianism is alive and well, and ensures no hope of real healing of conflict in this generation either. This is the elephant in the room that no one is talking about.
Your second last sentence starts with the word bitterness, That would be my impression also of the mood of some of the people (both sides the same on this one) in NI. How this will ever dissipate in this little bit of land seem an impossibility to me.
Passports gives people in NI the opportunity to identify as UK or Irish citizens or both.
In order for this to be effective there should be no border checks for people travelling or trading in either direction. And here lies the problem that has arisen since since Brexit has happened. Suggesting that one side or the other is trying to get the upper hand is not going to solve it as both sides have a genuine gripe. Nationalist and Unionists both want different conclusions.
 

nivilla1982

Member
Livestock Farmer
Your second last sentence starts with the word bitterness, That would be my impression also of the mood of some of the people (both sides the same on this one) in NI. How this will ever dissipate in this little bit of land seem an impossibility to me.
Passports gives people in NI the opportunity to identify as UK or Irish citizens or both.
In order for this to be effective there should be no border checks for people travelling or trading in either direction. And here lies the problem that has arisen since since Brexit has happened. Suggesting that one side or the other is trying to get the upper hand is not going to solve it as both sides have a genuine gripe. Nationalist and Unionists both want different conclusions.
The Belfast Agreement has explicit recognition that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, thus the UK government has the right to legislate for it. None of that prevents anyone wishing to claim an Irish national identity. Unionist can argue with some justification that the North/South elements of the Agreement have been given more weight than the East/West provisions of said agreement.
 
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The Agrarian

Member
Location
Co Antrim
That is correct. I know you don't think there is an explicit necessity for a soft Irish border in the Belfast agreement, but I think the implication is there in spirit. The agreement will have the most support on the ground when it creates freedom of many kinds, and in all directions. I have virtually no personal vested interest in an open Irish border. I can't think that I've crossed it in at least two or three years, and I can't think of any trade across it, other than a bit of ice cream that my coop sells. But I recognise it's important to some people.

The construction of a protocol which places and hardens a border in the Irish sea is clearly contrary to the spirit of the Belfast agreement, which London and Dublin are co-guarantors of, is an act of terribly bad faith on the part of the EU, the Irish government, and the British government (in that order, as it's a requirement driven by the EU and the Irish). The protocol is not any more practical or ethical a solution than a hard Irish border.
 

nivilla1982

Member
Livestock Farmer
That is correct. I know you don't think there is an explicit necessity for a soft Irish border in the Belfast agreement, but I think the implication is there in spirit. The agreement will have the most support on the ground when it creates freedom of many kinds, and in all directions. I have virtually no personal vested interest in an open Irish border. I can't think that I've crossed it in at least two or three years, and I can't think of any trade across it, other than a bit of ice cream that my coop sells. But I recognise it's important to some people.

The construction of a protocol which places and hardens a border in the Irish sea is clearly contrary to the spirit of the Belfast agreement, which London and Dublin are co-guarantors of, is an act of terribly bad faith on the part of the EU, the Irish government, and the British government (in that order, as it's a requirement driven by the EU and the Irish). The protocol is not any more practical or ethical a solution than a hard Irish border.
Yep the implication is there for a "demilitarised" border ie a border situation for a "peaceful" society.
 

Ashtree

Member
Leaving not alone the EU but also the SM and the CU, automatically meant that there was going to be a serious border situation on the island.
But I’m sorry to say, it was the unionists and in particular the DUP, who chose that path. Peace and normalisation of society should have been their primary motivation, not slavish complicity with hard core English nationalists.
There was a massive miscalculation on the part of the DUP, who never gave a single thought to the domestic six counties situation, believing that the leave vote wouldn’t win the referendum. The morning after the vote, they had trapped themselves and sold out the union.
Blaming the EU and Dublin, is more than a bit churlish I’m afraid. Dublin’s and by extension the EU’s attitude to the border was well known from the outset. They were never going to give up easily on it. DUP gambled with petrol and matches, and now are looking to pass the parcel.
 

Ashtree

Member

Key points made in that article, is that businesses move on. Figure out alternatives and deploy the requisite resources to get the job done. New routes to EU from ROI opened up and fully subscribed. Business in NI (thinking balance sheet, not orange or green), look down south and say, we should get our goods on those ferry’s also.
Meanwhile the NI Ag Minister this week decides to stop development work in Larne to facilitate trade with GB, and pulls staff out of there. What’s the outcome? A new need has been created to get stock and agriculture product from GB to NI. Spring is upon us and a lot of that trade needs to happen ASAP. Rest assured it will find a way to happen. It will route through ROI, and into NI. #letsgetbrexitdone
 

Farm buy

Member
Livestock Farmer
The Belfast Agreement has explicit recognition that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, thus the UK government has the right to legislate for it. None of that prevents anyone wishing to claim an Irish national identity. Unionist can argue with some justification that the North/South elements of the Agreement have been given more weight than the East/West provisions of said agreement.
I never mentioned the Belfast agreement
 

LIVE - DEFRA SFI Janet Hughes “ask me anything” 19:00-20:00 20th September (Today)

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Hello, I’m Janet Hughes. I’m the Programme Director for the Future Farming and Countryside Programme in Defra – the programme that’s phasing out the Common Agricultural Policy and introducing new schemes and services for farmers.



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