The NI/ROI Protocol

[JimAndy]

and now we have 10 pages of whataboutya and we pull historical "facts" about ireland, but making sure we don't put them in historical context, as we need them to prove our points.

the one thing i will point out is that humans did not evolve on ireland so none of us are native to the land, and what more DNA research has shown that "none of the current irish share and traits with those that first settled Ireland" or in other words the current irish people are not the first to settle ireland but were the last to invade

 

[tje]

"British" has only been in existence since 1707 ...

It was after 1536 when British got to rule Ireland in full for the first time (wikipedia). While British ruled Ireland for 800 years+ there was was never peace as it was invaded originally and the Irish never accepted that. Wikipedia is a great source of unbiased information .

 

[Joe]

and now we have 10 pages of whataboutya and we pull historical "facts" about ireland, but making sure we don't put them in historical context, as we need them to prove our points.

the one thing i will point out is that humans did not evolve on ireland so none of us are native to the land, and what more DNA research has shown that "none of the current irish share and traits with those that first settled Ireland" or in other words the current irish people are not the first to settle ireland but were the last to invade

I would agree with this, and tbh posted the original post on purpose to see what came back.
You need to be mindful of the past so as not make the same mistakes, but leaders move forward in combined manner and think all would like to see that in NI.

 

[The Agrarian]

and now we have 10 pages of whataboutya and we pull historical "facts" about ireland, but making sure we don't put them in historical context, as we need them to prove our points.

the one thing i will point out is that humans did not evolve on ireland so none of us are native to the land, and what more DNA research has shown that "none of the current irish share and traits with those that first settled Ireland" or in other words the current irish people are not the first to settle ireland but were the last to invade

Yes, that's a rephrasing of what I said.

 

[JimAndy]

given the more "modern" history of ireland, were the Northern presbyterian were front and center of most rebellions, I've always wonder how history would have turned out had Ireland formed a modern republic (total separation of church and state) instead of total integration of church and state, would the north have found it more acceptable and stayed as part of ireland

 

[Wellytrack]

I’ve often wondered what a ‘New Ireland’ would look like if the North was to be included. Would it just be the same ROI as now and attempt to absorb Northern Ireland with its hard left Republicanism and Center right Unionism and carry on? Or would it have to be carried on with a power sharing arrangement.

Assuming of course that such an arrangement was at all palatable to ROI.

What with more recent rumblings and the current all Ireland customs setup an all Ireland looks like a cleaner break for both the UK and EU.

 

[Joe]

I’ve often wondered what a ‘New Ireland’ would look like if the North was to be included. Would it just be the same ROI as now and attempt to absorb Northern Ireland with its hard left Republicanism and Center right Unionism and carry on? Or would it have to be carried on with a power sharing arrangement.

Assuming of course that such an arrangement was at all palatable to ROI.

What with more recent rumblings and the current all Ireland customs setup an all Ireland looks like a cleaner break for both the UK and EU.

Not a chance will look the same. There is serious conversations taking place around how that would look in the South in case of a border pole, you will always have the no change on both sides but majority in South wouldn't want anything forced needs to be collaboration. The south has changed massively in past twenty years, the church control is at final stages of being removed probably over next decade and be honest we re prob becoming more liberal than some would want up north.
In those conversations everything is on the table, flag, name, anthem, Stormont remaining, link with London for the North. While you ll have the standard republicans giving out about the changes or proposals reality is we re smart enough to know if it ever happens will be different.

 

[Ashtree]

Not a chance will look the same. There is serious conversations taking place around how that would look in the South in case of a border pole, you will always have the no change on both sides but majority in South wouldn't want anything forced needs to be collaboration. The south has changed massively in past twenty years, the church control is at final stages of being removed probably over next decade and be honest we re prob becoming more liberal than some would want up north.
In those conversations everything is on the table, flag, name, anthem, Stormont remaining, link with London for the North. While you ll have the standard republicans giving out about the changes or proposals reality is we re smart enough to know if it ever happens will be different.

Good summary. The Shinners and DUP both need to be brought to heel in the north. Time that duopoly ended and the middle ground unionist, nationalist and neither side takes hold.
Shinners need also bringing to heel in the south.
If we were to have to listen to those two whining and whinging about sfa for ever more, I’d sooner rejoin London and be done with it.

 

[tje]

So where are you on the political spectrum ? Fine Gael or Fianna Fail or something else ?

Good summary. The Shinners and DUP both need to be brought to heel in the north. Time that duopoly ended and the middle ground unionist, nationalist and neither side takes hold.
Shinners need also bringing to heel in the south.

 

[Ashtree]

So where are you on the political spectrum ? Fine Gael or Fianna Fail or something else ?

Im very very firmly apolitical. I do not vote on any party lines. My base philosophy politically is “try” to keep them at heel. I pitch my vote to try to get the governing party changed at every election. Mixing my candidate choice between FF, FG and Labour. Of course now it’s hard economically or socially to differentiate Ff and FG. I have no difficulty with Labour in government when that arises. Ruarai Quinn was a great pro business finance minister.
If there was an all island election in my lifetime, I’d vote an Alliance or SDLP or a moderate unionist candidate before I’d vote a shinner.

 

[Joe]

Im very very firmly apolitical. I do not vote on any party lines. My base philosophy politically is “try” to keep them at heel. I pitch my vote to try to get the governing party changed at every election. Mixing my candidate choice between FF, FG and Labour. Of course now it’s hard economically or socially to differentiate Ff and FG. I have no difficulty with Labour in government when that arises. Ruarai Quinn was a great pro business finance minister.
If there was an all island election in my lifetime, I’d vote an Alliance or SDLP or a moderate unionist candidate before I’d vote a shinner.

My circle of friends and work colleagues which would be in the main 3rd level educated, property owners, 35 to 50 age bracket, non agricultural/manual jobs SF would be totally persona non grata none of us would ever vote for them. Think what Ashtree outlines above of floating between parties is probably accurate of large % of voters. Younger voters have floated towards SF recently but how stable a vote is that would be very questionable, especially if Labour can get it together.

 

[M-J-G]

Couldn't people in NI take advantage of being in the unique position of being able to trade between the EU and the UK or has Boris totally taken a dump on NI and ruined any chance of that in his so called deal?

Pardon my ignorance if that's not workable, but being in an advantageous position would perhaps allow unionists and nationalists to accept how things currently are without need for change.
People are after all generally motivated by money.
Political and religious beliefs generally loose gravity when money comes into play.

 

[The Agrarian]

Irish identities and cultures and citizenship are very well protected in Northern Ireland. It's a fair compromise, and unionists have never sought to drive out 'irishness'. I fail to see how anything like that level of reciprocation can be made in a united ireland scenario, especially with the perpetual Sinn Fein strategy of 'greening the north', to use their own term. It's one of annihilation of identities and cultures associated with Britain. For as long as this attitude exists among my nationalist/republican countrymen, I could obviously never contemplate voting for my own extinction, no matter how much money might be offered. Having read at great length the anti-britain attitudes on this forum from Irish folks, I would have little confidence that the spirit of embracing and protecting our Northern identities would be any better in the south.

 

[M-J-G]

I'd guess NI will remain as it is, mainly because it seems like the south wants the north even less than the UK seems to.

 

[le bon paysan]

uk pm and uks northern iron minister stand at the dispatch box and say there isn't a border in the Irish sea
If they're lying they should resign, its against the ministerial code to lie at the dispatch box,
they haven't resigned so there can't be a border in the Irish sea?
Watch this!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357381761722908674

The liar Gove has written to the EU

"THE EU NEED TO COME FORWARD WITH FAR REACHING CHANGES TO THE PROTOCOL, NOT JUST TECHNICAL CHANGES"
The one johnson and gove described (above) a month ago as a brilliant deal!
Who would want far reaching changes to a month old brilliant deal?

3 possibilities here
1. Johnson lied to the DUP about there being no border checks between N Ireland and mainland UK.
2. Johnson lied when he signed the agreement that meant there would be border checks between N Ireland and mainland U.K.
3. Johnson lied through his teeth to both.(1.01).

So now there are major tensions and a possible threat to the peace in Ireland.

 

[dave6470]

if they had put the border on the actual border Sinn Fein wood be up in armes so they cant exprct the unionist people to take it either

 

[Wellytrack]

Couldn't people in NI take advantage of being in the unique position of being able to trade between the EU and the UK or has Boris totally taken a dump on NI and ruined any chance of that in his so called deal?

Pardon my ignorance if that's not workable, but being in an advantageous position would perhaps allow unionists and nationalists to accept how things currently are without need for change.
People are after all generally motivated by money.
Political and religious beliefs generally loose gravity when money comes into play.

We have the potential for the best of both worlds in time, but at the moment but unfortunately it’s the worst of both.

 

[Ashtree]

Don’t forget, a significant majority in NI voted against Brexit. The DUP bear responsibility for the Irish Sea border outcome. Sorry now, but that’s a fact.

 

[le bon paysan]

Don’t forget, a significant majority in NI voted against Brexit. The DUP bear responsibility for the Irish Sea border outcome. Sorry now, but that’s a fact.

Johnson told MPs yesterday "there could be no barrier in the Irish Sea"

As if this is some future possibility being suggested by someone else

When it's already a reality agreed to by him. A really good example of why you don't assume you'll get a workable international agreement negotiated by a career journalist who was sacked multiple times because his ethics were even lower than those of the sh1trags who employed him.
Still,
Get Brexit done, democracy and all that. Idiots!

 

[M-J-G]

Don’t forget, a significant majority in NI voted against Brexit. The DUP bear responsibility for the Irish Sea border outcome. Sorry now, but that’s a fact.

Not quite fact though, ironically they may have unwittingly/naively encouraged people to vote for the the situation that has led to a potential weakening of the union, but people weren't forced to vote in any particular way.

People could still have used their brains to think logically.