The regulatory burden

[lazy farmer]

Julie's normally sunny face clouded over, as a neighbouring farmer extolled the benefits of farming in Poland - "they don't have the red tape we have, see.You don't take care of yourself and get hurt, that's your lookout." He nodded approvingly.

Julie's grandfather was a miner. He was killed in a mine accident at 38, and left her grandmother with two young children and no comeback - her 'lookout' was that she had to take in other people's washing to make ends meet. She died penniless.

I guess that was also her lookout.

Today health and safety regulations - along with the rest of the regulatory burden - are the hallmark of an advanced and civilised State. More, and better, regulation is not only desirable but also inevitable.

It's why periodic calls for a 'bonfire of regulations' get nowhere - by definition, they cannot. They are issued by people who do know better, at an audience who ought to know better (but do not) - as good a working definition of populism as I've found.

It is time farmers accepted this facet of modern life.

for better or worse trump has chopped approaching a quarter off of American regs. and unemployment has dropped and economic output has risen.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

for better or worse trump has chopped approaching a quarter off of American regs. and unemployment has dropped and economic output has risen.

Yes, and the US has always had a much different mentality when it comes to rules, anyway.
I could imagine the reaction to trying to implement something like RT, even... and it wouldn't be a "yes sir, 3 bags full sir" type of reaction

It would be "are you for f###ing real, be gone with you" - or words to effect, and rightly so.
Food, too, is actually viewed globally as a consumable, plentiful, renewable commodity - not something to really be fussed or fussy about - and the wealthier you are, the fussier you can be.

Don't mean to be rude, but food production in Europe is all about the fuss and it appears to be even worse in the UK - those of us farming on little islands have this in common: a scarcity mentality

We cannot hope to compete with countries operating with this abundance mentality, as it is a distinct advantage in how the game is played - the same holds true for farmers with an abundance mentality, who don't sweat the details.

 

[lazy farmer]

I would also add that many economists can't understand why output per person hasn't risen in the UK since the crash of 07.
My wife works on the biggest building site in Europe and even her a health and safety freak can see the rules and regs we have are adding cost with out benefit. My belief is that those who are "producing" are producing more its just that the amount of "hangers on" are increasing to nullify this increase.

 

[Grassman]

for better or worse trump has chopped approaching a quarter off of American regs. and unemployment has dropped and economic output has risen.

I watched a thing about renewable electric storage on the bbc this morning. Seems the USA has really moved on renewables yet the press make them out to be the bad guys for pulling out of Kyoto agreement.
There is possibly some truth in Trump's fake news issue.

 

[Grassman]

Yes, and the US has always had a much different mentality when it comes to rules, anyway.
I could imagine the reaction to trying to implement something like RT, even... and it wouldn't be a "yes sir, 3 bags full sir" type of reaction

It would be "are you for f###ing real, be gone with you" - or words to effect, and rightly so.
Food, too, is actually viewed globally as a consumable, plentiful, renewable commodity - not something to really be fussed or fussy about - and the wealthier you are, the fussier you can be.

Don't mean to be rude, but food production in Europe is all about the fuss and it appears to be even worse in the UK - those of us farming on little islands have this in common: a scarcity mentality

We cannot hope to compete with countries operating with this abundance mentality, as it is a distinct advantage in how the game is played - the same holds true for farmers with an abundance mentality, who don't sweat the details.

True. You only have to look at @Clive s issue with the mouse dropping!

 

[JP1]

Yes, and the US has always had a much different mentality when it comes to rules, anyway.
I could imagine the reaction to trying to implement something like RT, even... and it wouldn't be a "yes sir, 3 bags full sir" type of reaction

It would be "are you for f###ing real, be gone with you" - or words to effect, and rightly so.
Food, too, is actually viewed globally as a consumable, plentiful, renewable commodity - not something to really be fussed or fussy about - and the wealthier you are, the fussier you can be.

Don't mean to be rude, but food production in Europe is all about the fuss and it appears to be even worse in the UK - those of us farming on little islands have this in common: a scarcity mentality

We cannot hope to compete with countries operating with this abundance mentality, as it is a distinct advantage in how the game is played - the same holds true for farmers with an abundance mentality, who don't sweat the details.

And as my food bill is a but a tiny fraction of what my forefathers paid as a % of their income, I am quite happy about some of the fuss if it delivers a beautiful diverse countryside and good animal welfare. A lot of the huffing and puffing would cause comic delight amongst other trades and professions who face stricter regulation (or even economic competition) and see many farming exemptions

 

[Cowabunga]

I would also add that many economists can't understand why output per person hasn't risen in the UK since the crash of 07.
My wife works on the biggest building site in Europe and even her a health and safety freak can see the rules and regs we have are adding cost with out benefit. My belief is that those who are "producing" are producing more its just that the amount of "hangers on" are increasing to nullify this increase.

Every site where an excavator works now has to have a man on foot guarding the excavator. That, on its own, has halved productivity. Worse still when it comes to hedge cutting main roads. It used to be that the driver put signs out and carried on. In the last few years they all seem to have traffic control, with a lollipop man at both ends plus a man moving the signs. This has reduced productivity by at least four times, so three or four men are now required to do the work formerly done by one.

The reason productivity fluctuates in industries such as agriculture is because it is mostly measured by output value per person employed. If the value of output halves, then productivity measured in this way halves. Conversely when commodity prices double, productivity doubles. Problem is that there are so few people now employed on farms that there is little scope for employing fewer people as prices inevitably fall relative to inflation over the long term, so long term productivity is bound to fall over time as farmer's relative income falls further.

 

[Cowabunga]

True. You only have to look at @Clive s issue with the mouse dropping!

In the UK, grain has to be stored in rodent free and bird-proof stores, even short term. In the rest of the world it is often tipped in the open and left for days with birds shitting on it and eating it unhindered. I'm not saying that is acceptable, just that that is how it is.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

True. You only have to look at @Clive s issue with the mouse dropping!

Maybe the mouse in the field?
Yes, it seems very much OTT - until you consider:

other trades and professions who face stricter regulation (or even economic competition) and see many farming exemptions

Which, is quite true and valid as well!

And as my food bill is a but a tiny fraction of what my forefathers paid as a % of their income, I am quite happy about some of the fuss if it delivers a beautiful diverse countryside and good animal welfare.

Again, perfectly valid - but if you were living in a ghetto in a dead car, your preferences may be quite different - again this is the harsh reality of many many people in the world - not saying you should simply (or could simply) produce cheap food for the masses - but it is the globe that sets the benchmark, not Sainsbury's no matter what these "giants" would have you believe, they are minnows in the ocean of food available, and consumed.

Again, control is really the issue, not price nor convenience - because cheap and convenient food can be imported and the problems exported; but they lose their grip on domestic production at the same time.

Great concept, of tariffs and trade barriers, but the best food is what people can still afford to buy - these controllers don't see the whole picture because some is outside of their agenda

 

[JP1]

Maybe the mouse in the field?
Yes, it seems very much OTT - until you consider:

Which, is quite true and valid as well!



Again, perfectly valid - but if you were living in a ghetto in a dead car, your preferences may be quite different - again this is the harsh reality of many many people in the world - not saying you should simply (or could simply) produce cheap food for the masses - but it is the globe that sets the benchmark, not Sainsbury's no matter what these "giants" would have you believe, they are minnows in the ocean of food available, and consumed.

Again, control is really the issue, not price nor convenience - because cheap and convenient food can be imported and the problems exported; but they lose their grip on domestic production at the same time.

Great concept, of tariffs and trade barriers, but the best food is what people can still afford to buy - these controllers don't see the whole picture because some is outside of their agenda

Agree with much of that. Land ownership by Foreign interests / States and wars over water will feature in the future too.

Living as richly we do in the UK it's a disgrace how food availability is regarded. Disposable, wasted and thrown in to land fill and with folks now unable to cook in many instances.

I don't have a fear of regulation however.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

In the UK, grain has to be stored in rodent free and bird-proof stores, even short term. In the rest of the world it is often tipped in the open and left for days with birds shitting on it and eating it unhindered. I'm not saying that is acceptable, just that that is how it is.

"dilution is the solution" ?
I agree, the unfortunate part is that the product can be absolutely perfect when it leaves the farm gate, but if I dropped that scone on the carpet, "the four second rule" still applies

Pick it up and eat it with lint on, never mind the risk of bird-sh!t, hope nobody saw it drop!
Most of the food recalls and scares have had absolutely nothing to do with primary production standards but improper processing, distribution, or preparation.

Farmer still takes the blow.

 

[Pond digger]

Julie's normally sunny face clouded over, as a neighbouring farmer extolled the benefits of farming in Poland - "they don't have the red tape we have, see.You don't take care of yourself and get hurt, that's your lookout." He nodded approvingly.

Julie's grandfather was a miner. He was killed in a mine accident at 38, and left her grandmother with two young children and no comeback - her 'lookout' was that she had to take in other people's washing to make ends meet. She died penniless.

I guess that was also her lookout.

Today health and safety regulations - along with the rest of the regulatory burden - are the hallmark of an advanced and civilised State. More, and better, regulation is not only desirable but also inevitable.

It's why periodic calls for a 'bonfire of regulations' get nowhere - by definition, they cannot. They are issued by people who do know better, at an audience who ought to know better (but do not) - as good a working definition of populism as I've found.

It is time farmers accepted this facet of modern life.

@Walterp , you raise a valid point. However, there are only so many hours in the day, and business has to be productive in order to carry those that aren't . The administrative burden on business, particularly small business, needs very careful consideration: it needs to be relevant and reasonable.

 

[arbel]

Julie's Grandparents certainly had a hard life, but then nobody has ever promised me an easy life.

It was the U-Kippers' bullsh!t about red-tape being wiped out by Brexit, if we want to continue to export to the EU, we will have to continue to meet their rules & regulations.

Really? Frankly I think that is simplistic. For what it's worth, we should go for a hard hard Brexit. The consequences?
We arrive at that magic day with no agreement. Billions of pounds/euros worth of product pile up on each side of the Channel. Nothing moving? Thousands of UK and EU companies going bankrupt? Total meltdown of the economies of the EU member nations and that of Great Britain? No money in the EU to pay the salaries of the gravy train mobsters?
It just won't happen.
Is it worth the risk? Too damned right it is. We have had our backs up against the wall before. Been threatened; suddenly seemed to have no friends, no hope.
But we prevailed and came through some very dark times.
Airbus and BMW making veiled blackmail threats. If they want to go, let them. GB used to make great cars and great aircraft. We still can.
Where's the money coming from you say? Think back to 1939. Amazing how the money can be found when we are threatened. Amazing how our stalwart farmers pulled hard to feed the nation in those troubled days. Done it once, we can do it again.
Hard Brexit - it's time to clean up and kick out all the deadwood. The mobsters in business suits, the overpaid (you know who they are!), the swindlers and bone idle. Time to put a backbone into our flabby nation. Time to take care of the poor, the sick and the homeless. Time to reward decent, hardworking and honest citizens.

 

[JMTHORNLEY]

I'm struggling to understand the logic here in your post @JMTHORNLEY .

I'm not sure if that list of people you quote are , in your opinion, worse than you, because they're different from you.

Benefit scroungers, well, yes , if someone genuinely has no interest in working and contributing towards our Society, then that's hard to sympathise with, but, people of different religions, sexualities, ;the "open minded ," are you serious?

I'm a lot older than you are , and I grew up in a time of these strong men. I don't remember them ever expressing views that were critical of others who were different from themselves. They had been away and fought in a war . They had lived completely different lives and had met many different people. They had experienced life in a completely different form and had learned from it . When your life has been saved by someone from a different religion, or of a different sexuality, you will certainly learn .

You can blame the times we live in, but you can't always blame the people. I agree with @JP1 about how easy /difficult the youth of have it

There have always been bad people about.

The short simple answer is,

I firmly believe that this country has losend its values it was built on and allowed a state of mamby pambyism where people are to bothered with upsetting a minority than the people who work hard daily.

Not because they are different, I have no issue with many people, I must say I quoted these in extremes so pelease don’t feel I have strong hatred for religion as many of my family have VERY strong religious ties that I respect them for and ‘other’ religions simply, I have had a lot of experience with and don’t generally lend myself to that thought process. I know many Muslims through my lines of other work, Jews and Hindus alike all nice people. I guess I’m just fed up, as I’m sure many are, of the lack of control and unwillingness of the UK to stand and fight the extreams in all of our daily lives

 

[JMTHORNLEY]

UKIP voter? Am being nosey so do ignore me, just doing a bit of market research as it were. I am going to ask my 19 and 23 year old 'privileged over entitled louts' for their comment when I see them next. And I may ask all the lads and lasses from abroad cutting lettuce when I come across them later today. Hey ho.

Nope Conservative thanks,

You may have only read one comment, if you see my post shortly after t will explain all clearly for you. I don’t believe ALL my generation are lazy louts but being an active part in it and growing up in it what I have experienced is not comforting, talking from experience.

Also I believe you may have misunderstood, solely related to the UK not EU as I have no experience with foreign workers and would not have the cheek to offer an uneducated opinion.

 

[An Gof]

In the UK, grain has to be stored in rodent free and bird-proof stores, even short term. In the rest of the world it is often tipped in the open and left for days with birds shitting on it and eating it unhindered. I'm not saying that is acceptable, just that that is how it is.

Outdoor grain storage Aussie style. At least they put a a sheet over it

 

[lazy farmer]

Really? Frankly I think that is simplistic. For what it's worth, we should go for a hard hard Brexit. The consequences?
We arrive at that magic day with no agreement. Billions of pounds/euros worth of product pile up on each side of the Channel. Nothing moving? Thousands of UK and EU companies going bankrupt? Total meltdown of the economies of the EU member nations and that of Great Britain? No money in the EU to pay the salaries of the gravy train mobsters?
It just won't happen.
Is it worth the risk? Too damned right it is. We have had our backs up against the wall before. Been threatened; suddenly seemed to have no friends, no hope.
But we prevailed and came through some very dark times.
Airbus and BMW making veiled blackmail threats. If they want to go, let them. GB used to make great cars and great aircraft. We still can.
Where's the money coming from you say? Think back to 1939. Amazing how the money can be found when we are threatened. Amazing how our stalwart farmers pulled hard to feed the nation in those troubled days. Done it once, we can do it again.
Hard Brexit - it's time to clean up and kick out all the deadwood. The mobsters in business suits, the overpaid (you know who they are!), the swindlers and bone idle. Time to put a backbone into our flabby nation. Time to take care of the poor, the sick and the homeless. Time to reward decent, hardworking and honest citizens.

so when Churchill had to go to roosevelt and beg for a massive loan before America joined in you are expecting trump to be as generous are you ?

 

[lazy farmer]

I watched a thing about renewable electric storage on the bbc this morning. Seems the USA has really moved on renewables yet the press make them out to be the bad guys for pulling out of Kyoto agreement.
There is possibly some truth in Trump's fake news issue.

No its the truth about Trump just witness the tick up the amount of people working in coal extraction and the increase in permits to extract more coal.
the truth about renewables is America is its a federation and many states within this union(nearly all with a democrat governor) have chosen to continue to implement the Paris accord and Trump hasn't the power to stop them.

 

[arbel]

so when Churchill had to go to roosevelt and beg for a massive loan before America joined in you are expecting trump to be as generous are you ?

I did't mention anything about going to war with the EU, did I?

We are repeatedly told by the EU, that GB cannot be in a better position after leaving. Err, why not? Doesn't everyone aspire to make decisions that leave them better off?

As for Mr. Trump, who can possibly say how he would react to us having a no deal Brexit.

 

[Hilly]

Really? Frankly I think that is simplistic. For what it's worth, we should go for a hard hard Brexit. The consequences?
We arrive at that magic day with no agreement. Billions of pounds/euros worth of product pile up on each side of the Channel. Nothing moving? Thousands of UK and EU companies going bankrupt? Total meltdown of the economies of the EU member nations and that of Great Britain? No money in the EU to pay the salaries of the gravy train mobsters?
It just won't happen.
Is it worth the risk? Too damned right it is. We have had our backs up against the wall before. Been threatened; suddenly seemed to have no friends, no hope.
But we prevailed and came through some very dark times.
Airbus and BMW making veiled blackmail threats. If they want to go, let them. GB used to make great cars and great aircraft. We still can.
Where's the money coming from you say? Think back to 1939. Amazing how the money can be found when we are threatened. Amazing how our stalwart farmers pulled hard to feed the nation in those troubled days. Done it once, we can do it again.
Hard Brexit - it's time to clean up and kick out all the deadwood. The mobsters in business suits, the overpaid (you know who they are!), the swindlers and bone idle. Time to put a backbone into our flabby nation. Time to take care of the poor, the sick and the homeless. Time to reward decent, hardworking and honest citizens.

Brilliant post, thankyou.