The right to repair...

[tinman]

i suppose im looking at this more from the repair workshop side of things but even so.

As time moves on and our machinery gets more and more technologically advanced when there is a problem its getting to the point you have to go back to the dealer for more and more repairs because he possesses the software and hardware thats plugged in to your Tractor for isntance to tell them what or where the problem is, and of course to fix it too, with parts from the mothership, at the going rate.
now some shops dont charge too bad a rate but, i have something here that the garage charges £120 ph + vodka and tonic, bit sharp for my liking tbh, so rates can vary.

Thing is,
when you buy a nice new tractor that can cost a nice bit of money, would it not be right to assume that you also buy the right to the diagnostic software, or the right to access it at the least.
for the last 20 odd years plugging a tractor into diagnose a problem has been common but you cant get access (unless your a dealer) to the software and hardware to do the job.
of course its good for the manufacturers bottom line but why has the owner of the product not got the right to also purchase, at a fair price and not a stratospheric price, the same tools.

after all, you bought the machine, and you own it, is it not right that you can also buy the above to fix it.

 

[Daniel]

Yes you should be able to. Fair enough if they say that if you use the software to do repairs within the warranty period then that invalidates the warranty.

But you should be able to repair machinery that you own at your own risk, amazed this hasn't been challenged in court.

 

[Deereone]

There are software gizmos available for cars and motorbikes so why not tractors too.
The frustrations are compounded by the different levels of access. The dealer has one access level the tractor manufacturer has a higher level but only the engine maker has the top level, or so I have been told. This way when something goes wrong they all pass the buck and you are left in the dark as to where the problem lies and how to fix it.

 

[traineefarmer]

Apparently this is all being opened up to the end user in the same way that car diagnostic have been by OBD2 readers.

You can buy a gizmo to read your car's fault codes for a few hundred quid and there are units that will read many newer tractor codes for a few thousand...

 

[SMID]

Suppose its always been going on to some extent I remember the local main dealer being less than enthusiastic about supplying a workshop manual for the 500 Masseys

 

[Phil P]

There was a similarity thread running not to long ago about this subject. I’m pretty sure the conclusion was the manufacturer has to make the technical/workshop manuals (hard copy) available for purchase (I know deere have a website for it) they currently get around the having to supply the diagnostic software on the grounds of health and safety! This is due to the fact some calibrations make parts of the tractor move (hitch etc) and an untrained engineer could be injured!

 

[tinman]

Apparently this is all being opened up to the end user in the same way that car diagnostic have been by OBD2 readers.

You can buy a gizmo to read your car's fault codes for a few hundred quid and there are units that will read many newer tractor codes for a few thousand...

from what i know there isnt any one size fits all for the agri or construction side of things, the obd2 readers come in a bundle form , round £600 will buy one that will cover the diagnostics for prety much nearly everything out there but not the agri or construct side, there isnt anything out there fwik.

for one brand and one model in that brand the pirated software and box alone is the best end of 2k, theres a lot of brands and models...

i have workshop manuals on cd here but they only go so far, its not good enough imo that the owner hanst the right to access the diagnostic tools, its only diagnostics for gods sake, were not going to try and build one like....

 

[tinman]

There was a similarity thread running not to long ago about this subject. I’m pretty sure the conclusion was the manufacturer has to make the technical/workshop manuals (hard copy) available for purchase (I know deere have a website for it) they currently get around the having to supply the diagnostic software on the grounds of health and safety! This is due to the fact some calibrations make parts of the tractor move (hitch etc) and an untrained engineer could be injured!

its a bit of a cop out tho, i mean, thats like saying you cant buy a gun because you might shoot yourself.

 

[mo!]

its a bit of a cop out tho, i mean, thats like saying you cant buy a gun because you might shoot yourself.

Errm, you can't buy guns without a license and part of that license is there to weed out the people that want to shoot themselves...

 

[Phil P]

its a bit of a cop out tho, i mean, thats like saying you cant buy a gun because you might shoot yourself.

Not really, your have to apply for and be deemed fit to possess a gun license. In the same respect you have to be trained and deemed responsible to use agriculture diagnostics software.

As I said, the manufacturer gets of the hook with the health and safety card. There is quite a big difference between an ODB2 reader and dealer software also. ODB2 reader is just that, a diagnostic reader and reset tool and nothing more, ag dealer software is capable of diagnostics as well as calibrations and most importantly the ability to alter the vehicles settings! This could effect - emissions, speed, braking efficiency, steering, should I go on?

It’s not quite as clear cut as you may think, most manufacturers will make it possible to access fault codes through the dash or display, then make the codes available in either the ops manual or the workshop manual should you wish to purchase one.

I’m not saying this is right, and I know why people get frustrated, BUT having worked on the other side I’ve seen the mess some owners can make!!! I’ve also had to tidy up said mess, something as simple as changing a fuse for example can lead to a wiring loom replacement

 

[Glaws]

i suppose im looking at this more from the repair workshop side of things but even so.

As time moves on and our machinery gets more and more technologically advanced when there is a problem its getting to the point you have to go back to the dealer for more and more repairs because he possesses the software and hardware thats plugged in to your Tractor for isntance to tell them what or where the problem is, and of course to fix it too, with parts from the mothership, at the going rate.
now some shops dont charge too bad a rate but, i have something here that the garage charges £120 ph + vodka and tonic, bit sharp for my liking tbh, so rates can vary.

Thing is,
when you buy a nice new tractor that can cost a nice bit of money, would it not be right to assume that you also buy the right to the diagnostic software, or the right to access it at the least.
for the last 20 odd years plugging a tractor into diagnose a problem has been common but you cant get access (unless your a dealer) to the software and hardware to do the job.
of course its good for the manufacturers bottom line but why has the owner of the product not got the right to also purchase, at a fair price and not a stratospheric price, the same tools.

after all, you bought the machine, and you own it, is it not right that you can also buy the above to fix it.

Its already happening, however is far from simple and goal posts are likely to shift.

http://www.cema-agri.org/newsletterarticle/rmi-brussels-we-have-problem

http://cema-agri.org/newsletterarti...n-rmi-final-text-ready-–-so-what-does-it-mean

Plus these regs won't apply to anything pre 2016.

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

The manufacturers have RMI websites by law on the go to comply with the EU 167/2013 regs. But as said they aren’t retrospective. Quite empty so far:

They also cannot stop an “indy” from buying propriety diagnostic software and tools. It must be provided on an equal basis and price as a franchised outlet. Apparently.

https://rmi.agcopartsandservice.com/home

https://rmi.deere.com/

https://rmi.sdfgroup.com/about-rmi-portal/

 

[Daniel]

The manufacturers have RMI websites by law on the go to comply with the EU 167/2013 regs. But as said they aren’t retrospective. Quite empty so far:

They also cannot stop an “indy” from buying propriety diagnostic software and tools. It must be provided on an equal basis and price as a franchised outlet. Apparently.

https://rmi.agcopartsandservice.com/home

https://rmi.deere.com/

https://rmi.sdfgroup.com/about-rmi-portal/

They could slap and arbitrarily high price on the software, say £30k, then have all their main dealers buy it, and discount some stock items to them by the same amount. Easy enough to stop independents buying it.

 

[Phil P]

They could slap and arbitrarily high price on the software, say £30k, then have all their main dealers buy it, and discount some stock items to them by the same amount. Easy enough to stop independents buying it.

I can only really say about the jd software but it’s not cheap to the dealer anyway! The have to buy the software (and updates) then pay a monthly (could be quarterly) subscription for each computer that they run it on. There’s no getting round it for the dealer either as the software locks each month (or quarter) they then have to log into jd online and renew the subscription. So Jd know exactly how may computers they’re running the software on.

 

[TheTallGuy]

They could slap and arbitrarily high price on the software, say £30k, then have all their main dealers buy it, and discount some stock items to them by the same amount. Easy enough to stop independents buying it.

But that would not be "fair and equal access" that they are supposed to comply with.

Apparently this is all being opened up to the end user in the same way that car diagnostic have been by OBD2 readers.

You can buy a gizmo to read your car's fault codes for a few hundred quid and there are units that will read many newer tractor codes for a few thousand...

Few hundred? Try a few quid... https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?k=Odb2

Most manufacturers will also have a proprietary system overlaid onto the ODB2 port that allows access to the more advanced systems such as engine tuning & security systems - you can usually get cloned hardware & pirated software on eBay for under £100.

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

They could slap and arbitrarily high price on the software, say £30k, then have all their main dealers buy it, and discount some stock items to them by the same amount. Easy enough to stop independents buying it.

I don’t think they’d risk that sort of shenanigans. The multi billion euro anti comp fines levied on the five big truck manufactures last year and before put the wind up up a lot of them

 

[fermerboy]

But that would not be "fair and equal access" that they are supposed to comply with.

Few hundred? Try a few quid... https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?k=Odb2

Most manufacturers will also have a proprietary system overlaid onto the ODB2 port that allows access to the more advanced systems such as engine tuning & security systems - you can usually get cloned hardware & pirated software on eBay for under £100.

That one linked works great with an app on my mobile phone.

I think that tractors should have a common plug like OBD2.
Surely the manufacturers could allow a "lite" version with maybe limited functions to allow diagnostics and calibrations but no modifications. I have no problem in paying for software at a reasonable cost, if if allows me to fix my own tractor.

I must be getting old, as I'm of the "too much comptuters" school of thought.
Got a Welger 220 baler here laid up because the computer has had enough.£1450 for a new computer, to fix a basic roller baler, FFS!!!!

 

[Phil P]

That one linked works great with an app on my mobile phone.

I think that tractors should have a common plug like OBD2.
Surely the manufacturers could allow a "lite" version with maybe limited functions to allow diagnostics and calibrations but no modifications. I have no problem in paying for software at a reasonable cost, if if allows me to fix my own tractor.

I must be getting old, as I'm of the "too much comptuters" school of thought.
Got a Welger 220 baler here laid up because the computer has had enough.£1450 for a new computer, to fix a basic roller baler, FFS!!!!

Slightly off topic but have you tried DK electronics to get your baler computer repaired? Not much they can’t fix.

 

[fermerboy]

Slightly off topic but have you tried DK electronics to get your baler computer repaired? Not much they can’t fix.

Thanks, already spoken to them, the chap at David King said 50/50 chance of repair, it's going there as soon as I can get a minute to strip it off the baler.