The transition from BPS to ELMS

[Jackov Altraids]

What did Juniper say?

I was busy and only half heard it in the background so I'll find it and put it here sometime.

The main thrust I got was his disappointment of the scaling back of 'landscape recovery'.

I just got the clear feeling he had, and was happy to follow his own agenda. This wouldn't be a problem if he wasn't running the organisation that sits between farmers and Defra and didn't have the unchallengeable power to manipulate and interpret in favour of his personal beliefs [which may or may not be valid].


Edited to add;

You can listen here, starting at 2:10:10 -

Today - 13/06/2022 - BBC Sounds

News and current affairs, including Sports Desk, Weather and Thought for the Day.

www.bbc.co.uk

To be fair, apart from his assertion that we need to re-introduce species, he spoke quite well.
In fact, he made more sense than Eustace who is on immediately after.

 

[No wot]

I'm afraid you're bang on.

A little while ago I spoke to a chap who spent 20 years in the RPA and recently came home to run the family farm. He's adamant the scheme is being deliberately set up to fail. And once it's obvious that there is very low take up, the money can be syphoned off into other departments and they will simply cherry pick the bits of "public good" they want to keep, put it into law and make us do it anyway, just without the money. And once the money's all gone to more deserving causes, Red Tractor is being set up as a "privatised" industry regulator to police it all on their behalf, thus dispensing with the need for the puss filled mire that is the RPA and, even better, we get to pay for it...

...or those that are left get to pay for it! After all, neither government, processors nor retailors want to deal with lots of small, awkward farmers. It's inefficient don't you know? So, the small ones will leave (be pushed out) and the big ones will get ever bigger and Boris' chums will become more "efficient". So when the floppy haired berk visited Cornwall last week, he didn't visit a small family beef farm did he? Nope, he visited one of the biggest veg outfits in the country and told them to grow more veg!

Or am I just cynical?!!!

No, you are absolutely spot on , if any of us are dependent on the SFP sub , time to start making some serious decisions, especially whilst crop and livestock prices are as high as they are , it won't last many yrs

 

[Grass And Grain]

Higher food prices will sort farmings future out more than anything, people will have to stop buying material things and eventually will look longingly into the Veg shop rather than the Apple store.
Don't anybody come back with people can’t afford food , it's people don't respect food and buy all sorts of other tat first before they realise they have nothing left to spend on food.

I agree with this...

but, Government say they want cheap food, and I fear they'll continue to facilitate this, and pay us a subsidy bung to keep us quiet. Cheaper to pay us £2.5 billion, then buy cheap food from abroad, or at least let the cheap imports in to the country which will suppress our prices. Atm high global commodity prices are saving cereal farmers, but massive problem for livestock (although it will he the same the world over, so prices should filter through eventually).

First thought is we need to work to fix the balance of power with processors.

 

[Cowcorn]

Why dont the pay 200 quid acre on a hundred acres max to every farmer who can prove he / she earns a min 60 % of their income farming .
Cert from the Inland Revenue e
Then critical mass would be maintained and Society and rural communities would benefit hugely and thats a real PUBLIC GOOD .
The can pay green tenners acre after that if the want but really some poor divil earning middling money and paying tax so that the big estates and landowners can cream it is anything but fair or morally right

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

I was busy and only half heard it in the background so I'll find it and put it here sometime.

The main thrust I got was his disappointment of the scaling back of 'landscape recovery'.

I just got the clear feeling he had, and was happy to follow his own agenda. This wouldn't be a problem if he wasn't running the organisation that sits between farmers and Defra and didn't have the unchallengeable power to manipulate and interpret in favour of his personal beliefs [which may or may not be valid].


Edited to add;

You can listen here, starting at 2:10:10 -

Today - 13/06/2022 - BBC Sounds

News and current affairs, including Sports Desk, Weather and Thought for the Day.

www.bbc.co.uk

To be fair, apart from his assertion that we need to re-introduce species, he spoke quite well.
In fact, he made more sense than Eustace who is on immediately after.

He's a naturalist which is why they put him in charge of NE. Who would you rather have doing the job?

You seem to be making him out to be some kind of enemy. As I see it the enemy we all face is the loss of species, habitat and soil carbon. Every species, especially humans, depends on a healthy and functional ecosystem to survive, a point he made very clear on the interview.

 

[delilah]

Nothing wrong with Tony Juniper.
The last three directors of Friends of the Earth:
Jonathan Porritt.
Tony Juniper
Craig Bennett
Someone at FoE has known what they were doing when appointing unknowns. All gone on to greater things. All well grounded in the inter reliance between farming and environmentalism. They are your allies. Yet - in the main - they are vilified. No hope for you.

 

[delilah]

First thought is we need to work to fix the balance of power with processors.

Well, yes.

 

[Courier]

“The transition from BPS to ELMS”

Not going to be pretty for working farmers with rent, mortgage or interest to pay - It’ll work well for big primary landowning organisations and individuals though @Janet Hughes Defra

 

[Jackov Altraids]

He's a naturalist which is why they put him in charge of NE. Who would you rather have doing the job?

You seem to be making him out to be some kind of enemy. As I see it the enemy we all face is the loss of species, habitat and soil carbon. Every species, especially humans, depends on a healthy and functional ecosystem to survive, a point he made very clear on the interview.

You are correct.
As I said, having listened properly, I thought he spoke well and apart from his assertion that we need to re-introduce species, I agreed with him.
I don't like him being in a unreproachable position in which he can dictate interpretation and enforcement of government policy.
That isn't his fault. Defra should never have set up NE to be in the position of power that they are and the NFU should have always been very clear that farmers would be unwise to sign up to any agreement with terms, conditions and enforcement structured as they were.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

I agree with this...

but, Government say they want cheap food, and I fear they'll continue to facilitate this, and pay us a subsidy bung to keep us quiet. Cheaper to pay us £2.5 billion, then buy cheap food from abroad, or at least let the cheap imports in to the country which will suppress our prices. Atm high global commodity prices are saving cereal farmers, but massive problem for livestock (although it will he the same the world over, so prices should filter through eventually).

First thought is we need to work to fix the balance of power with processors.

Funny isn't it? We must have cheap food, you never hear anyone say we must have cheap petrol, we must have cheap phones, we must have cheap furniture or fitted kitchens or cheap holidays

 

[Hindsight]

Funny isn't it? We must have cheap food, you never hear anyone say we must have cheap petrol, we must have cheap phones, we must have cheap furniture or fitted kitchens or cheap holidays

Did the sun get to you yesterday! I think the general public (consumer) would disagree with that statement HVF.

 

[Hindsight]

You are correct.
As I said, having listened properly, I thought he spoke well and apart from his assertion that we need to re-introduce species, I agreed with him.
I don't like him being in a unreproachable position in which he can dictate interpretation and enforcement of government policy.
That isn't his fault. Defra should never have set up NE to be in the position of power that they are and the NFU should have always been very clear that farmers would be unwise to sign up to any agreement with terms, conditions and enforcement structured as they were.

Thank you for the link. I listened and considered he made comments and replies to questions that were balanced politically, but overall reasonable. Eustace who came on after was rather more muddled and singing the government line.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

You are correct.
As I said, having listened properly, I thought he spoke well and apart from his assertion that we need to re-introduce species, I agreed with him.
I don't like him being in a unreproachable position in which he can dictate interpretation and enforcement of government policy.
That isn't his fault. Defra should never have set up NE to be in the position of power that they are and the NFU should have always been very clear that farmers would be unwise to sign up to any agreement with terms, conditions and enforcement structured as they were.

I think you are overestimating the position of power that Tony Juniper and even the RPA are in.

There are many much bigger demands on the public purse than this, like health or education and they aren't exactly flush with cash

Yes he has (a bit of) a say over the rural budget but it's a total of £3bn.

For comparison:

NHS budget £213bn

Education £100bn

even transport gets £44bn

meanwhile Tesco's turnover is £60bn and Sainsbury's is £32bn.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

I think you are overestimating the position of power that Tony Juniper and even the RPA are in.

There are many much bigger demands on the public purse than this, like health or education and they aren't exactly flush with cash

Yes he has (a bit of) a say over the rural budget but it's a total of £3bn.

For comparison:

NHS budget £213bn

Education £100bn

even transport gets £44bn

meanwhile Tesco's turnover is £60bn and Sainsbury's is £32bn.

I wasn't referring to the financial aspect.

Tony Juniper has a huge influence on the culture and mentality of NE.
He also has control of the interpretation and administration of rules and regulations which affect farming and can affectively hold farmers to ransom.
Hopefully, if NE is taken back into the control of Defra, the anomalies resulting from the current arrangement will be rectified.
The RPA doesn't have any influence as such, it is only an agency for administering the payments as have been agreed elsewhere. It certainly doesn't have an agenda and vision which NE does.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

I wasn't referring to the financial aspect.

Tony Juniper has a huge influence on the culture and mentality of NE.
He also has control of the interpretation and administration of rules and regulations which affect farming and can affectively hold farmers to ransom.
Hopefully, if NE is taken back into the control of Defra, the anomalies resulting from the current arrangement will be rectified.
The RPA doesn't have any influence as such, it is only an agency for administering the payments as have been agreed elsewhere. It certainly doesn't have an agenda and vision which NE does.

Isn't natural England just another part of defra though?

Power is control of money and resources isn't it?

Presumably his, and therefore ne's influence over the £3bn budget is what you object to, because you don't like some or all of the policies, or is it just the uncertainty which has resulted from the ridiculously slow pace of development/ implementation?

You say farmers are held to ransom, can you explain what you mean by that?

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Isn't natural England just another part of defra though?

Power is control of money and resources isn't it?

Presumably his, and therefore ne's influence over the £3bn budget is what you object to, because you don't like some or all of the policies, or is it just the uncertainty which has resulted from the ridiculously slow pace of development/ implementation?

You say farmers are held to ransom, can you explain what you mean by that?

It seems rather [unnecessarily] complicated but I believe NE acts as an NGO.
Natural England is an executive non-departmental public body, sponsored by the Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs. This means it operates with the resources of government but without the accountability.
There is a conflict in it's role as "We’re the government’s adviser for the natural environment, helping to protect England’s nature and landscapes for people to enjoy" and then acting on behalf of Defra to administer the scheme which it lobbied to influence.
So I don't object to how NE decide to spend their budget or even their policies, it's how they can and do manipulate the policies of others which they are paid to administrate.

They operate in a similar fashion to the EA. The EA unilaterally decided to interpret the autumn spreading rules against all reasonable advice due to a senior management fixation on livestock farming.
Incidentally, we wonder why the EA seems to concentrate on agriculture rather than the water companies who are responsible for over 90% of incidents and then you realise David Dangerfield who is the EA executive for water, land and biodiversity, spent 20 years working as operations manager for Anglian water, Thames water and Northern Ireland water.

 

[Huno]

OMG!! that makes us farmers as SBI recievers of public budget NGO's aswell!! I hate NE and the sooner it is accountable to everyone just like us real farmers..the better!! Chuck the EA into the pot too... common freakin sense!!

 

[Huno]

Take tax payers cash or paddle our own canoes... simple extreme choices for a happy life...and a happy wife..or partner

 

[Huno]

It seems rather [unnecessarily] complicated but I believe NE acts as an NGO.
Natural England is an executive non-departmental public body, sponsored by the Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs. This means it operates with the resources of government but without the accountability.
There is a conflict in it's role as "We’re the government’s adviser for the natural environment, helping to protect England’s nature and landscapes for people to enjoy" and then acting on behalf of Defra to administer the scheme which it lobbied to influence.
So I don't object to how NE decide to spend their budget or even their policies, it's how they can and do manipulate the policies of others which they are paid to administrate.

They operate in a similar fashion to the EA. The EA unilaterally decided to interpret the autumn spreading rules against all reasonable advice due to a senior management fixation on livestock farming.
Incidentally, we wonder why the EA seems to concentrate on agriculture rather than the water companies who are responsible for over 90% of incidents and then you realise David Dangerfield who is the EA executive for water, land and biodiversity, spent 20 years working as operations manager for Anglian water, Thames water and Northern Ireland water.

Lots of poachers become game keepers and vis a vis??

 

[steveR]

You are correct.
As I said, having listened properly, I thought he spoke well and apart from his assertion that we need to re-introduce species, I agreed with him.
I don't like him being in a unreproachable position in which he can dictate interpretation and enforcement of government policy.
That isn't his fault. Defra should never have set up NE to be in the position of power that they are and the NFU should have always been very clear that farmers would be unwise to sign up to any agreement with terms, conditions and enforcement structured as they were.

I am no longer an NFU member, but I have said several times, that their Members should ask for any Contracts such as relating to CS/SFI Agreements should be vetted properly by the NFU contracts service... I think it would open a few eyes.