The Two Simon's Theory

[Tractor Boy]

Having walked round our second wheats today with the agronomist, I have decided not to try and zero till 2nd wheats again unless done in a very different way.

Snap! Same conclusion I've drawn as well. Think I'd have to bale to even think about trying again and baling seems to defeat the point of the system when I have no access to muck to replace it with. Also I can do without the extra traffic wheelings!

 

[Louis Mc]

Just leave a decent stubble and Bale the remaining straw and grow a crop of mustard in the intervening period to give you food for worms over winter. It has worked fantastically well here this year. Looks as good as some of the first wheat. Wheat is better to a line where there was mustard versus bare stubble

 

[Feldspar]

Just leave a decent stubble and Bale the remaining straw and grow a crop of mustard in the intervening period to give you food for worms over winter. It has worked fantastically well here this year. Looks as good as some of the first wheat. Wheat is better to a line where there was mustard versus bare stubble

Black-grass and heavy land. I might sound like a broken record, but they are huge limiting factors. Baling would definitely help a lot, but the bit of baling I did this year has been a PITA due to unreliable contractors around here.

 

[Pedders]

Having walked round our second wheats today with the agronomist, I have decided not to try and zero till 2nd wheats again unless done in a very different way.

. very happy with our continous wheat using the Dale tined drill but everything is baled .I don't think I'd like to try into chopped straw ... your terrsastar would help pre drillling too while you get the ground kinder at least that's what we found running the sampo ahead of the drill last year but not needed this ...but IMO the key is to get rid of the straw ....

 

[SilliamWhale]

Snap! Same conclusion I've drawn as well. Think I'd have to bale to even think about trying again and baling seems to defeat the point of the system when I have no access to muck to replace it with. Also I can do without the extra traffic wheelings!

Dont worry about baling. Do a bit. Its better to bale and no till than not bale and min till in my view as it keeps the biology and structure functioning via root mass

 

[shakerator]

Having walked round our second wheats today with the agronomist, I have decided not to try and zero till 2nd wheats again unless done in a very different way.

Surprised you didn't terrestar?

Chicken muck helps melt away the straw in this position. Best crops were 2nd wheats this year. Your earlier 2nd wheats look good ?!

 

[shakerator]

Dont worry about baling. Do a bit. Its better to bale and no till than not bale and min till in my view as it keeps the biology and structure functioning via root mass

But your not getting rid of any root mass with tillage ?
I would prefer big residues shallowly incorporated to bale and no till tbh

 

[SilliamWhale]

But your not getting rid of any root mass with tillage ?
I would prefer big residues shallowly incorporated to bale and no till tbh

Youre oxidising your roots with tillage surely. That said I wouldnt bale everything just once or twice in the rotation every 5 years

 

[Feldspar]

Surprised you didn't terrestar?

Chicken muck helps melt away the straw in this position. Best crops were 2nd wheats this year. Your earlier 2nd wheats look good ?!

We did Terrastar one field of 2nd wheat. The problem was that having cut the stubbles long it really left a huge thatch of straw on the surface which wasn't that well incorporated. We then had some Joker discs on demo which we then used on part of this field. This definitely did a better job of burying the trash. In fact this field actually looks good in both parts, but it's on a field of meadow ground which is nice working soil and so I don't think it is a fair test. I did do a few test strips in other fields, and I thought that the drill was going better through the standing trash.

One mistake I think we did make was not drilling at an angle to last year, which meant that whilst some coulters were running in clean ground between the rows, others were running right up the rows and stuffing a lot of straw into the slot.

We've got a good 250ac of good looking zero-till 2nd wheat which was drilled two weeks earlier. The problem is this is acceptable, but it went into absolutely perfect conditions. The later block of second wheat which isn't so good went into better conditions that I think we would have in an average year, and the fact that it isn't great is a strong litmus test for me. This block has been direct drilled now for 4 years whereas the early drilled 2nd wheats went into ground that was ploughed last year. I still maintain that you get a lot more looser, friable tilth when drilling into ground that has been ploughed the previous year. It may be artificial tilth and not indicative of good overall soil structure, but it's easier to drill into IMO.

 

[Feldspar]

. very happy with our continous wheat using the Dale tined drill but everything is baled .I don't think I'd like to try into chopped straw ... your terrsastar would help pre drillling too while you get the ground kinder at least that's what we found running the sampo ahead of the drill last year but not needed this ...but IMO the key is to get rid of the straw ....

Agree. But our local baling person is highly unreliable and so we're not using him again. Might look to see if there are other contractors. Only market for straw is into the power station at Ely and the prices really aren't that great. If though it means we can get a good crop, then it will be worth baling even for not a great price.

 

[britt]

I feel that growing a second wheat is just doing yourself out of a first wheat the next year.
Wouldn't a break crop be a better option.

 

[shakerator]

We did Terrastar one field of 2nd wheat. The problem was that having cut the stubbles long it really left a huge thatch of straw on the surface which wasn't that well incorporated. We then had some Joker discs on demo which we then used on part of this field. In fact this field actually looks good in both parts, but it's on a field of meadow ground which is nice working soil.

We've got a good 250ac of good looking zero-till 2nd wheat which was drilled two weeks earlier. The problem is this is acceptable, but it went into absolutely perfect conditions. The later block of second wheat which isn't so good went into better conditions that I think we would have in an average year, and the fact that it isn't great is a strong litmus test for me. This block has been direct drilled now for 4 years whereas the early drilled 2nd wheats went into ground that was ploughed last year. I still maintain that you get a lot more looser, friable tilth when drilling into ground that has been ploughed the previous year. It may be artificial tilth and not indicative of good overall soil structure, but it's easier to drill into IMO.

Yes I'd agree with that for sure

We did Terrastar one field of 2nd wheat. The problem was that having cut the stubbles long it really left a huge thatch of straw on the surface which wasn't that well incorporated. We then had some Joker discs on demo which we then used on part of this field. This definitely did a better job of burying the trash. In fact this field actually looks good in both parts, but it's on a field of meadow ground which is nice working soil and so I don't think it is a fair test. I did do a few test strips in other fields, and I thought that the drill was going better through the standing trash.

One mistake I think we did make was not drilling at an angle to last year, which meant that whilst some coulters were running in clean ground between the rows, others were running right up the rows and stuffing a lot of straw into the slot.

We've got a good 250ac of good looking zero-till 2nd wheat which was drilled two weeks earlier. The problem is this is acceptable, but it went into absolutely perfect conditions. The later block of second wheat which isn't so good went into better conditions that I think we would have in an average year, and the fact that it isn't great is a strong litmus test for me. This block has been direct drilled now for 4 years whereas the early drilled 2nd wheats went into ground that was ploughed last year. I still maintain that you get a lot more looser, friable tilth when drilling into ground that has been ploughed the previous year. It may be artificial tilth and not indicative of good overall soil structure, but it's easier to drill into IMO.

Cross drill x2 with harrows down both times

 

[Philip Hedeng]

I feel that growing a second wheat is just doing yourself out of a first wheat the next year.
Wouldn't a break crop be a better option.

Exactly what I'm thinking. Removing straw from heavy clay soils will only make matters worse over time, won't it? Of everything I've read on this forum about problems with heavy clay type, black grass infested fields I cannot understand why opt for second winter wheat. Worst black grass areas in Sweden are also on heavy clay soils with low crop diversity and almost exclusively winter crops. These are areas with high annual rainfall and lack of livestock. Cover crops and spring break crops sound like a good place to start, can it really be so impossibly hard to drill spring corps in these areas?

 

[Feldspar]

Exactly what I'm thinking. Removing straw from heavy clay soils will only make matters worse over time, won't it? Of everything I've read on this forum about problems with heavy clay type, black grass infested fields I cannot understand why opt for second winter wheat. Worst black grass areas in Sweden are also on heavy clay soils with low crop diversity and almost exclusively winter crops. These are areas with high annual rainfall and lack of livestock. Cover crops and spring break crops sound like a good place to start, can it really be so impossibly hard to drill spring corps in these areas?

I need to review my last lot of reading, but the main message that I took away from it was that occasional straw removal really didn't have a noticeable effect. It's the below ground biomass which has a much greater effect, weight for weight, than the above ground for organic matter building.

We only chose to drill the early block of 2nd wheat because they were exceptionally clean for black-grass last year, and we thought we could squeeze another wheat out of them. The second lot of 2nd wheat wasn't quite as clean, but the unusually dry conditions in late October, and the horrible spring barley crops we had this year from spring drilling, made the decision for some extra opportunistic 2nd wheat.

We have had three springs in a row now which have been really quite stressful to establish spring crops in. We have really struggled to get dry enough soils. Any cover crops or heavy residue cover has been even worse with extra slug pressure. This was with a Mzuri and Claydon, and maybe our 750a will be easier, but these past few springs haven't even been particularly high rainfall.

Despite our black-grass and chemistry spend, wheat is still one of the better paying crops here. Wheat and OSR will have made money last year, whereas spring barley, spring beans and winter barley will be more borderline.

 

[TelesnaAg]

I thought the acid from ceral straw hurting OSR was common knowledge?...ive had a few giys tell me here they often get canola plants dying when touching the stubble and its due to acid content in straw....

Ant...

 

[martian]

As we've got one or two fields of wheat where the pre ems haven't touched the BG so will probably be sprayed off for spring crops, we thought we'd risk the Curse of the 2 Simon's and drill some late Crusoe into a cover crop (previously eat marked for spring) to make the acres up.

Will roll on the frost to see if we can kill remaining cover without chemical. If it doesn't work we've got a week or two to spray it off...

 

[SilliamWhale]

As we've got one or two fields of wheat where the pre ems haven't touched the BG so will probably be sprayed off for spring crops, we thought we'd risk the Curse of the 2 Simon's and drill some late Crusoe into a cover crop (previously eat marked for spring) to make the acres up. View attachment 434106Will roll on the frost to see if we can kill remaining cover without chemical. If it doesn't work we've got a week or two to spray it off...

Who is charge of keeping the wheelings tidy on your place?

 

[martian]

That's the hare coursing community, bless them.

 

[SilliamWhale]

That's the hare coursing community, bless them.

Lovely to see you offering traditional country sportsmen a chance to practice their art.

 

[Philip Hedeng]

I need to review my last lot of reading, but the main message that I took away from it was that occasional straw removal really didn't have a noticeable effect. It's the below ground biomass which has a much greater effect, weight for weight, than the above ground for organic matter building.

We only chose to drill the early block of 2nd wheat because they were exceptionally clean for black-grass last year, and we thought we could squeeze another wheat out of them. The second lot of 2nd wheat wasn't quite as clean, but the unusually dry conditions in late October, and the horrible spring barley crops we had this year from spring drilling, made the decision for some extra opportunistic 2nd wheat.

We have had three springs in a row now which have been really quite stressful to establish spring crops in. We have really struggled to get dry enough soils. Any cover crops or heavy residue cover has been even worse with extra slug pressure. This was with a Mzuri and Claydon, and maybe our 750a will be easier, but these past few springs haven't even been particularly high rainfall.

Despite our black-grass and chemistry spend, wheat is still one of the better paying crops here. Wheat and OSR will have made money last year, whereas spring barley, spring beans and winter barley will be more borderline.

I'm not a user of tine drills, but most who use Claydon for instance tell the same story of how difficult spring sowing is, especially cereals. So I hope disc drills make it easier. We haven't had a chance to properly test our disc drill on heavy soils in the spring with undisturbed residue yet and it will probably be a nerve wrecking experience. Where we are going to come spring, there's now a killed of cover crop which we rolled then applied glyphosate to in late October so I hope we won't have much trouble with any toxic effects. Getting it dry is another matter entirely. The residue is somewhat dark in color and if it stays that way maybe it will get warm quicker.