Simon Chiles
DD Moderator
- Location
- Surrey/ Kent Border, UK
This is an option to remove the situation, however as it's not always practical , changing the components of the cover would be another solution.
The Two Simon's Theory
- Thread starter Simon Chiles
- Start date
This is an option to remove the situation, however as it's not always practical , changing the components of the cover would be another solution.
Simon Chiles
DD Moderator
- Location
- Surrey/ Kent Border, UK
The plan is to implement some of these ideas this year and then have another of Will's No-Till Alliance open day's here in May '15.
Baling Hay
Member
I would have thought that as the fym begins to rot it could have caused the same problems? Or am I being stupid?
Simon Chiles
DD Moderator
- Location
- Surrey/ Kent Border, UK
I suppose that by the time you apply the FYM the straw has already decomposed, I've never yet had a problem with it spread on dd'ed crops.
Simon Chiles
DD Moderator
- Location
- Surrey/ Kent Border, UK
I don't know whether this is true.
I do know that applying N on doesn't cure the problem. I've never been a fan of starter fert and having seen the way some wheat I drilled this spring has grown in some very adverse conditions I'm even less likely to use it.
- Location
- CW5 Cheshire
Are BASE going to be involved in any way and could they supply any funding?
I definitely think BASE should be looking at some farmer run, on farm trials on this subject.
From base committee meetings I know there is a desire to run and even fund some trial work but in a base France style on farm way rather than full on expensive explicated pro run trials (which as unaffordable)
I'm sure if a method statement could be created for this and maybe replicated over several farms it's something they would help with if asked
Since simon first made me aware of this over the winteri have already been experimenting with my spring cropping
It was the reason behind the early destruction and cross cutting of my over winter cover crops as I was concerned about the oats in them and why I have been saying I will not included oats in future cover crop mixes
I have plots where we didn't destroy cover for comparison, just sprayed. It was also the reason I has a contractor plough some new land that was long term grass ahead of beans
I also used some prilled lime this year. Not got split fields but have some fields with and some without that can give some sort of comparison
The row cleaner I trailed was also very much with this concept in mind, making a disc drill perform more like a tined machine, I think the Claydon leading tine doesn't work as Jeff thinks ! It's not creating a easy passage for the roots (why should a root need this help in uncompacted soil) but it is acting as a sweep to clear residue from the seeding zone. Claydons also sell straw I believe ? Maybe this might explain the consistency of success they see ?
Most of my spring crops were large seed so this theory shouldn't affect them too greatly however but maybe it's why in my osr pea companion crop last year the pea (large seed away from straw) did better than the osr in the mix ?
Rotation is the solution IMO along with more informed choice of cover crop species rather than more inputs and complexity to drilling hardware and dare I suggest even that selling straw is the best policy ? As long as your replacing the om with a cover crop
It was the reason behind the early destruction and cross cutting of my over winter cover crops as I was concerned about the oats in them and why I have been saying I will not included oats in future cover crop mixes
I have plots where we didn't destroy cover for comparison, just sprayed. It was also the reason I has a contractor plough some new land that was long term grass ahead of beans
I also used some prilled lime this year. Not got split fields but have some fields with and some without that can give some sort of comparison
The row cleaner I trailed was also very much with this concept in mind, making a disc drill perform more like a tined machine, I think the Claydon leading tine doesn't work as Jeff thinks ! It's not creating a easy passage for the roots (why should a root need this help in uncompacted soil) but it is acting as a sweep to clear residue from the seeding zone. Claydons also sell straw I believe ? Maybe this might explain the consistency of success they see ?
Most of my spring crops were large seed so this theory shouldn't affect them too greatly however but maybe it's why in my osr pea companion crop last year the pea (large seed away from straw) did better than the osr in the mix ?
Rotation is the solution IMO along with more informed choice of cover crop species rather than more inputs and complexity to drilling hardware and dare I suggest even that selling straw is the best policy ? As long as your replacing the om with a cover crop
The best rape i have grown in recent years was in an area of wheat stubble that was torched by kids, the rape drilled in that area was much more vigorous than elsewhere.
I think it may be easier to remove the straw and replace with dung elsewhere in the rotation maybe?
I think it may be easier to remove the straw and replace with dung elsewhere in the rotation maybe?
- Location
- CW5 Cheshire
The following text is lifted from the user guide for the new Moore direct drill for grassland. It seems like Sam Moore has some useful knowledge on the subject and that may be lime is only a partial solution?
Method 6 Older leys, rough permanent grass or old worn out pastures
These need to be approached with care. Although Glyphosate deactivates in contact with soil, there is a problem with toxic phenol and acetic acids being
released by old decaying sprayed off vegetation, so if there is a thick mat or subsurface mat of roots and fibre, and inevitably the seed is placed near this mat,
then germination problems can occur due to localised acidic soil. This is worse in wet anaerobic conditions, before during or after seeding.
The problem with direct drilling into sprayed off grass or anything else that has a large root mat is that it is always a big gamble depending on the weather,
especially after you have drilled, which is why some people say it's successful and others don't. An analogy is that silage (decaying grass) made in wet
conditions is always more acidic when opened.
In a heavy mat situation, waiting for long enough for all the plants to die completely after spraying is the only way to guarantee success with direct drilling on
old matted pastures, otherwise you need to either shallow cultivate and roll, to increase the oxygen levels or if you're feeling lucky take a gamble, that the
sward wont lie wet after drilling. If you had a thick mat of decaying vegetation and spun bean seeds on the surface and then ploughed them in, you would get
the same results. So either spray off in spring and drill in autumn, after a lime application, and probably another lower rate spray, pre drilling, or less
production can be lost by spraying off in autumn, applying lime, and drilling in early spring, when a further lower rate spray is usually necessary.
In a lower more marginal mat situation, the application of quick acting bagged lime alone can help neutralize the effects of the acidic decomposition, but like all
seeding techniques depend on moisture and ground heat. Get the bagged lime on a few weeks before planned drilling date, even if the ph in the field is ok.
In this situation, we recommend the delayed glyphosate application techniques discussed above, that is to delay glyphosate application until after seeds have
been planted, but before they germinate, so that the seeds get maximum exposure to germination, establishment, and deeper rooting before the acidic effects
of the decaying plant material come to bear.
A few test sites dug with a spade, will help you decide on the subsurface mat/thatch problems that might be present.
Direct drilling after sprayed off temporary or more open leys isn't usually a problem as the root matt isn't big enough to damage seedings with its acids and
phenols.
In all the above cases use a vigorous quick establishing grass seed mixture up to 35kg/ha.
There is no doubt that a blend of 50% perennial Hybrid Tet, 25% Intermediate tet and 25% diploid works best. These are mostly larger seeds with greater
energy reserves for coping with adverse situations. Italian ryegrass swards can easily be re-established at the end of their allotted production cycle, by re-drilling
typically after the third season.
Method 6 Older leys, rough permanent grass or old worn out pastures
These need to be approached with care. Although Glyphosate deactivates in contact with soil, there is a problem with toxic phenol and acetic acids being
released by old decaying sprayed off vegetation, so if there is a thick mat or subsurface mat of roots and fibre, and inevitably the seed is placed near this mat,
then germination problems can occur due to localised acidic soil. This is worse in wet anaerobic conditions, before during or after seeding.
The problem with direct drilling into sprayed off grass or anything else that has a large root mat is that it is always a big gamble depending on the weather,
especially after you have drilled, which is why some people say it's successful and others don't. An analogy is that silage (decaying grass) made in wet
conditions is always more acidic when opened.
In a heavy mat situation, waiting for long enough for all the plants to die completely after spraying is the only way to guarantee success with direct drilling on
old matted pastures, otherwise you need to either shallow cultivate and roll, to increase the oxygen levels or if you're feeling lucky take a gamble, that the
sward wont lie wet after drilling. If you had a thick mat of decaying vegetation and spun bean seeds on the surface and then ploughed them in, you would get
the same results. So either spray off in spring and drill in autumn, after a lime application, and probably another lower rate spray, pre drilling, or less
production can be lost by spraying off in autumn, applying lime, and drilling in early spring, when a further lower rate spray is usually necessary.
In a lower more marginal mat situation, the application of quick acting bagged lime alone can help neutralize the effects of the acidic decomposition, but like all
seeding techniques depend on moisture and ground heat. Get the bagged lime on a few weeks before planned drilling date, even if the ph in the field is ok.
In this situation, we recommend the delayed glyphosate application techniques discussed above, that is to delay glyphosate application until after seeds have
been planted, but before they germinate, so that the seeds get maximum exposure to germination, establishment, and deeper rooting before the acidic effects
of the decaying plant material come to bear.
A few test sites dug with a spade, will help you decide on the subsurface mat/thatch problems that might be present.
Direct drilling after sprayed off temporary or more open leys isn't usually a problem as the root matt isn't big enough to damage seedings with its acids and
phenols.
In all the above cases use a vigorous quick establishing grass seed mixture up to 35kg/ha.
There is no doubt that a blend of 50% perennial Hybrid Tet, 25% Intermediate tet and 25% diploid works best. These are mostly larger seeds with greater
energy reserves for coping with adverse situations. Italian ryegrass swards can easily be re-established at the end of their allotted production cycle, by re-drilling
typically after the third season.
Feldspar
Member
- Location
- Essex, Cambs and Suffolk
Good post. There definitely seem to be some options that are relatively safe for no-till, for example wheat following beans or wheat following linseed. I also agree that the leading tine probably does more harm than good from a rooting perspective in many cases. If the soil has good structure the leading tine isn't necessary in so far as roots are concerned. The Mzuri in particular really does sweep away trash leaving it between the seeded rows and I think may be why it does well for rape.
SilliamWhale
Member
@Simon Chiles
I asked on agtalk about this a few weeks back and there was generally scepticism:
http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=472100&DisplayType=flat&setCookie=1
But AMPA seems to be a potential explanation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aminomethylphosphonic_acid
I asked on agtalk about this a few weeks back and there was generally scepticism:
http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=472100&DisplayType=flat&setCookie=1
But AMPA seems to be a potential explanation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aminomethylphosphonic_acid
I think maybe it's why my journey into zero-till had been pretty successful so far ?
Look at my rotation, wheat or barley only following breaks like linseed, beans or osr, Spring crops following cover crops all have established fantastically
Then look at the times I have had less than satisfactory results, ww after oats 2 years in a row now (oat straw chopped). And 2012 where I had to drill a few fields of second wheat as potatoes late lifting forced and change of plan - both on wet anaerobic seasons
Circumstantiallyi t all fits like a glove !
Going forward I'm sticking to these rules -
Ww or wb only after a break
Sell all cereal straw !! (Shock horror)
Lime pre osr after wb straw removed
Use row cleaners (need more trailing yet on 750a)
Lime pre osr and spring crops as required
No grassy species in my cover crops,
Always have a cover crop after a cereal
Drill earlier in autumn and latter in spring (less chance of anaerobic conditions)
No more ww after oats
Feldspar
Member
- Location
- Essex, Cambs and Suffolk
My worry with this would be the removing of the cereal straw, especially combined with low C:N ratios in the cover crops. Maybe in early no-till adoption there is an argument for keeping high carbon residue out of the equation until the biology has built up to be able to deal with it.
I haven't finished my reading by a long shot on this, but where no-till has been found to slowly improve soils it has been to a large extent because of the increase in residues that have been retained within the system. If you remove the cereal residue from a 9 t/ha wheat crop and replace them with the residue from a cover crop with a low C:N ratio, I would worry that you're not going to progress as fast as you might hope. Surely you don't need to remove cereal residue before a bean crop.
Feldspar
Member
- Location
- Essex, Cambs and Suffolk
Also, from a BASE funding point of view, I'm not sure that there's a huge need for funding. Even really small scale experiments are possible. As York said a while ago, if you're not baling, go out with a rake and manually remove an area of chopped straw; if you are baling, get some chopped straw and spread in on a baled field. The same with lime - either put a sheet out if liming the whole field, or get some lime in a bucket and spread some on a field which is otherwise not going to be limed. It doesn't have to be an experiment over hundreds of acres and it really doesn't have to cost that much.
Feldspar
Member
- Location
- Essex, Cambs and Suffolk
Also, with regard to spring cereal crops following previously harvested cereal crops with chopped straw. This year when planting beans in the spring I really didn't find that much barley straw from the summer before. This was on fields which have been previously ploughed every year and have been in pretty much continuous wheat for the last decade meaning you wouldn't expect a hugely active, diverse or large amount of soil life (although we have always chopped our straw).
So how did the straw disappear? From what I have observed, worm populations in our soils will build up very quickly. Even between ploughing every year we have a pretty good amount of worms. So they will have done a fair bit of munching. But the other thing to think about is that we raked last autumn. Last autumn our rake was doing quite a bit of soil movement and so it was mixing the straw in with the top layer of soil to a fair degree which should have allowed bacteria in the soil to get in contact with the residue and break it down. I wonder whether this sort of tactic would allow you to chop the straw and allow the residue to have released any acids it was going to release before you planted whatever spring crop you liked.
So how did the straw disappear? From what I have observed, worm populations in our soils will build up very quickly. Even between ploughing every year we have a pretty good amount of worms. So they will have done a fair bit of munching. But the other thing to think about is that we raked last autumn. Last autumn our rake was doing quite a bit of soil movement and so it was mixing the straw in with the top layer of soil to a fair degree which should have allowed bacteria in the soil to get in contact with the residue and break it down. I wonder whether this sort of tactic would allow you to chop the straw and allow the residue to have released any acids it was going to release before you planted whatever spring crop you liked.
Last edited:
Definitely found osr doesn't like following oats either! We are moving away from second cereals in favour of a spring break and going to have a go with cover crops pre spring crops as well.
SilliamWhale
Member
I'd say keep straw before beans if you can.
- Tags
- glyphosate nfum