The war in Ukraine...

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Is Zelensky loosing it a bit, which would be understandable, I am sure Washington are most unimpressed about giving advance notice if today’s visits... in fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are called off😕
I hope not, but sleep deprivation can have odd affects.

That aside... I've been wondering for some time why we - the West - don't tell Belarus (i.e. its dictator) that any military assistance to Russia or action against Ukraine would make it a legitimate target for Ukraine with our assistance. I've a feeling that he would really wind his neck in then, because he's only maintained in power by Putin and knows his population would top him given half a chance.
 

fudge

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire.
Is Zelensky loosing it a bit, which would be understandable, I am sure Washington are most unimpressed about giving advance notice if today’s visits... in fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are called off😕

And complaining about the order of the UN visit?🤷‍♂️
The guy is a broken record. He keeps asking for air cover, heavy weapons, financial assistance to rebuild his country, the full implementation of sanctions, all stuff he knows he won’t get. Meantime the o so clever western arms manufacturers make hay while the sun shines. I feel sorry for him and his people.
 

czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
The guy is a broken record. He keeps asking for air cover, heavy weapons, financial assistance to rebuild his country, the full implementation of sanctions, all stuff he knows he won’t get. Meantime the o so clever western arms manufacturers make hay while the sun shines. I feel sorry for him and his people.

i am sure he would love to change the record - he just needs the Russians to f**k off, out of his country then👍
 

BrianV

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Dartmoor
Is Zelensky loosing it a bit, which would be understandable, I am sure Washington are most unimpressed about giving advance notice if today’s visits... in fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are called off😕

And complaining about the order of the UN visit?🤷‍♂️
There's a guy in Moscow who's losing it even more & is well & truly pee'd, he's getting more unpredictable by the day & badly needs something to be able to crow about in the next two weeks or else look out! :rolleyes:
 

czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
There's a guy in Moscow who's losing it even more & is well & truly pee'd, he's getting more unpredictable by the day & badly needs something to be able to crow about in the next two weeks or else look out! :rolleyes:

yes, on the one hand...
On the other, he can’t sit there, all high and mighty issuing his threats to the whole world and think we all are going to do as he says
 
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hoff135

Member
Location
scotland
There's no point backing down now, the gauntlet has been thrown and we have to see it through to the end no matter the cost. If the west backs out now "because we are upsetting putin" then he will do what he likes and every other despot dictator in the world will be wanting the nuclear deterrent so they can invade and butcher their neighbours.

Perhaps a lot of mistakes have been made on our side but its too late to change that now.
 

BrianV

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Dartmoor
There's no point backing down now, the gauntlet has been thrown and we have to see it through to the end no matter the cost. If the west backs out now "because we are upsetting putin" then he will do what he likes and every other despot dictator in the world will be wanting the nuclear deterrent so they can invade and butcher their neighbours.

Perhaps a lot of mistakes have been made on our side but its too late to change that now.
Sounds really good in theory but the worry is if Putin starts to be seen to be losing in the East then all bets are off as to what he does next, one nuke fired as a warning to back off puts us into an all new ball game that we may not yet comprehend.
 

hoff135

Member
Location
scotland
Sounds really good in theory but the worry is if Putin starts to be seen to be losing in the East then all bets are off as to what he does next, one nuke fired as a warning to back off puts us into an all new ball game that we may not yet comprehend.
I admit it's not easy. Putin acting like he is holding a grenade in each hand with the pins pulled out, if you shoot him we all die.

We've no option but to keep ukraine supplied, if he realises he can't win fingers crossed he will seek a negotiated settlement. However this could go badly wrong but I thing backing out now is the wrong decision
 

BrianV

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Dartmoor
I admit it's not easy. Putin acting like he is holding a grenade in each hand with the pins pulled out, if you shoot him we all die.

We've no option but to keep ukraine supplied, if he realises he can't win fingers crossed he will seek a negotiated settlement. However this could go badly wrong but I thing backing out now is the wrong decision
Not sure US & UK are now interested in any type of settlement, they've gone into sh!t or bust mode!
 

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
Sounds really good in theory but the worry is if Putin starts to be seen to be losing in the East then all bets are off as to what he does next, one nuke fired as a warning to back off puts us into an all new ball game that we may not yet comprehend.
A nuclear weapon used will not be returned by any NATO country. It would though shake up the political system in the world. Because if any political leader in an autocratic state can issue a instruction to use a nuclear weapon, and that instruction is carried out, it means we cannot trust the Chinese, Iranians, and maybe Pakistanis. The immediate response would be Israel would launch attacks to totally destroy the Iranian nuclear programme. So there are more wide ranging consequences of a russian first use of nuclear weapons. But no we could not retaliate in kind, be it if an attack was on a NATO country, or on behalf of Ukraine. Those particular weapons are to potent to just lob around, unless both sides know when to stop. In 1945 that stop point occurred after the second. But as usual I am probably totally wrong.
 

Muck Spreader

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Limousin
I hope not, but sleep deprivation can have odd affects.

That aside... I've been wondering for some time why we - the West - don't tell Belarus (i.e. its dictator) that any military assistance to Russia or action against Ukraine would make it a legitimate target for Ukraine with our assistance. I've a feeling that he would really wind his neck in then, because he's only maintained in power by Putin and knows his population would top him given half a chance.
Interestingly, the potentially most effective anti-armour missile the Ukrainians are using is the Stugna-P. This is a Ukrainian designed and manufactured device, but it uses a Belarus designed and manufactured guidance system. :scratchhead:
 

manhill

Member
I hope not, but sleep deprivation can have odd affects.

That aside... I've been wondering for some time why we - the West - don't tell Belarus (i.e. its dictator) that any military assistance to Russia or action against Ukraine would make it a legitimate target for Ukraine with our assistance. I've a feeling that he would really wind his neck in then, because he's only maintained in power by Putin and knows his population would top him given half a chance.

Our assistance???
Ukraine have all our weapons by the look of it, what will we use? Need to invest in upping our armaments sharpish. Maybe we could recruit Ukrainians into our armed forces as long as they agree to bring their rifles with them.
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
A nuclear weapon used will not be returned by any NATO country. It would though shake up the political system in the world. Because if any political leader in an autocratic state can issue a instruction to use a nuclear weapon, and that instruction is carried out, it means we cannot trust the Chinese, Iranians, and maybe Pakistanis. The immediate response would be Israel would launch attacks to totally destroy the Iranian nuclear programme. So there are more wide ranging consequences of a russian first use of nuclear weapons. But no we could not retaliate in kind, be it if an attack was on a NATO country, or on behalf of Ukraine. Those particular weapons are to potent to just lob around, unless both sides know when to stop. In 1945 that stop point occurred after the second. But as usual I am probably totally wrong.
No, it doesn't and won't work like that; there has to be and will be a response in kind, if there isn't you effectively surrender everything, immediately. When this has been 'gamed', which it has any number of times, no like response leads to further and increased aggression every time, without fail.

This is, and Putin sees it as, a zero-sum game, he has to be made to see there is no win for him in the end; the alternative would see him winning, and you can work out where that will end.

Our assistance???
Ukraine have all our weapons by the look of it, what will we use? Need to invest in upping our armaments sharpish. Maybe we could recruit Ukrainians into our armed forces as long as they agree to bring their rifles with them.
Nowhere near! When I was serving I visited some 'stores' and the amount of kit had to be seen to be believed, certainly more than I reckoned we could use; and I know of others, plus I have no doubt there are still more I know nothing of. The word from people I know who are still serving, is that the situation remains the same.

And something I can write with absolute confidence, because it's from personal experience, is that when the proverbial hits the fan, the doors are wide open and kit freely available as needed.

None of that is to say that newer and better kit isn't welcome, but I can guarantee we have far, far more that you would probably give credit for.
 
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